Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects

[Fergie4608]

Your so very right about that, Once the Work Place Health and Safety inspectors have looked at the tractor tomorrow I will re assess my options as well there is another Government department here with unsafe products so I have just sent them a complaint so hopefully that will bear fruit soon and I will keep you posted, but eventually I will go to them if they don't end up replacing it, Thanks so much for your comment Garry

 

[airbiscuit]

Thanks for the explanation about not having a video of the lurching. Too bad - that would have been compelling evidence.

That said, your loader (barely) lifting mulch was compelling. A 25hp SCUT could do better. You would think MF would care more about their reputation.

 

[Fergie4608]

Thanks so Much Airbiscuit, Very true, the thing is I can tape many things now and will do from here as each day I solve more of the puzzle and I get Many wonderful People like you helping to spread the word around, its only public opinion that will actually get them to act and I plan a Whole series of videos this week showing first hand that actual tractor in action, I said to Allan Hill which is the Manager of Technical Support here in Melbourne that I am not his Test Dummy/ Guinea Pig to do Agco/ Massey Ferguson's Research and Development works and risk my Life solving defective equipment, Surprisingly I have not recieved any responses since the diff saga. yet the Tractor in many ways is even more lethal than before, but worse functionally its a Joke. Thank you for putting my video across here as that is awesome, I don't know how to do that and was just posting link across which is far less affective then what you have done for me.
Cheers Matey I really do appreciate your help.

Garry

 

[JWR]

This is such a puzzle. Could you give us a simplified list of what remains wrong after you got it back from them the last time? Yes or No to each of these would help a lot to understand your current status.

1) Lurching engagement of forward/reverse using the power shuttle ?
2) Binding of drive making it difficult to move the tractor?
3) Lack of ability to lift say 1000lbs (454kgs) in the bucket with the loader, with ease ?
4) Failure for steering to immediately point the front wheels left/right (while not buried in mud) in response to the steering wheel?

Did they tell you they "reduced hydraulic pressure ?" There really is no adjustment to simply raise or lower hydraulic pressures to my knowledge. It is just the pump and the rpm it is being turned which determines output hydraulic pressure. There should be a fixed high pressure at which a relief valve will dump flow back around to the sump to protect the pump, etc. but I don't think any of that is adjustable. MAYBE they meant they adjusted the rate of application of that pressure during shuttle action intending to smooth out the shuttle engagement ? Is that what you were saying ? None of that should have affected either steering or loader lift capacity or motion of the tractor once the clutch is out and the shuttle action is over with. That is just baffling.
If I am understanding your description of the "binding and won't move" problem that sounds like it has to be in the transmission and power shuttle area -- probably screwed up and put back together wrong (???)

In overview you have a standard transmission tractor with a clutch and a fancy way of engaging that clutch during forward and reverse shuttle movement. Once the gears and clutches are engaged, I do not see hydraulic pressure having anything to do with movement of the tractor.

 

[airbiscuit]

Fergie4608, at the risk of creating a monster, here is how you insert a video - Find the icon that looks like a filmstrip, click on it, and paste the URL of the video. Cheers :drink:

 

[Fergie4608]

Thanks Jwr,

I will do my best here

1 No the repair has stopped the Savage Shuttle so that is not happening any more

2 That is completely current and not only means you have to drive the tractor everywhere under its power even down hills or it will stop, shuttle to neutral and it still has the drag and it was Large before, Here I am talking about when it came back from repair, driving it at that time had huge amounts of drag/ it felt like binding in the tractor driveline and I described it that way. BUT I now believe that there was two faults there at the same time, it would chatter up and down at slow speed in the front diff wheels, as if tires to high and on Tarmac and it would also roll and bind up then free for a second and then bind again and if I steered the tractor it was much worse. I thought this was something the missaligned when reassembling the tractor, Diff Lock was almost impossible to get in, in fact I would have to stand to get it in and this was never like this before this splitting.
2A
I then found that it Blew the Front Bevel Gears in the Left hand axle, Now I believe that binding and letting go was actually that as I don't know when the diff was damaged but I do know without a doubt when it let go. I wrongly thought they were one fault and I am sure they were separate. But the Binding and loading of the Drag was a consequence that came from the O rings having next to no clearance now and I suspect you are totally right when you said this was not a good fix, but it was their fix and I suspect they have only done a few, I also suspect that these next fixes really did not happen where someone had dead flat farm land and no hills, because the drag causes massive power problems with hills and stalling.
This also can vary in serverity where I have had places where I must go all the way back to low range to be able to take off and yet the tractor had no load or bind issues before the repair. Also I must mention here to you that this drag obviously makes it harder for the motor, but now the Hydrualics take a huge toll on it, and also then if you apply steering then its gunna stall within seconds she will be Knocking to a stall, the 3 combined just rob everything and this tractor never was like this before, those other fuctions could be operated without bothering the motor at all so I don't know the why's but I can tell you what happens and quickly, I really don't feel the motor has a part in this like a loss of power from the pulling in half but the Hydrualics take a huge toll on it and this makes it extemely un predictable cause you can't tell when something will mount up and its all over so very quickly just by turning the wheels.
Sorry for that but I have jumped from the first repair of the splitting the tractor and how it came back, this last bit is actually now.

3 They have never told me anything at all of the repairs after the splitting, they have never discussed what they did or didn't do and in fact that letter I posted is the sole correspondence I have ever recieved from the Dealer which is zero and that one letter from Agco. I Tell you what the tractor was before and what it is now. To answer this remember there is 2 repairs here, the one where they split it in half is where the drag came from. Lift capacity was excellent when it came back, meaning it was as it was when I bought it and that never changed, only the Valve issue existed, Performance was excellent.
The Change came when the Diff Blew and you saw the letter in that letter I can not find anywhere that mentions changing any Hydrualic setting but he does say that all operations are working as per specifications, but does not mention adjustments, Later I will post video of it doing loader work in which it lifts heaped buckets of dirt material with ease and after they worked on it you have seen its limitations, More to this I have to say to you I don't know what has been done, Just the Tractor left here in full capacity of lifting and that is what came back, but remember he respond to say the Drive of the machine, But my Complaint to him entailed the drag so I believe they lowered pressure to try to lower the drag becuase I feel it has some connection to the O rings and oil transfer causing a back pressure of some kind causing the Binding/ Load/Drag but I have no idea how or what they did, See My problem solving is good and methodical So I now know that the 3 things are linked the drive, the Loader and then Steering, and I can tell you the steering is the last circuit so to speak in the sharing of oil and function and will be the one robbed if they are used in order.
I had that many times, change direction then lift loader and trim bucket for carry = no fluid in the Steering and would not return in respectable time, I admit I did not pursue this for any time frame instead I went to moving the tractor where ever it was pointing until the steering came back on line. I did allot of loader work so this was all the time when close to the truck, if you were running straight back, then my guess is many may never have known this was there.
4 In my Case the loss of steering was never a load issue it was always a fluid issue I believe, once it comes back with a large heaped bucket it has tons of power and moves the wheels back and forth with ease. I could cause it without load on the axle randomly it wasn't related to the bucket always being full, I have had it many times with just a bale of hay in it and having operated the 3 funstions in order. but its even more apparent now and random because I believe the lower pressure or what ever is causing this reduction in operational function.

You say there is no adjustment and mention the relief pressure which is what I think they lowered to stop the Tractor from being able to lift or break out much, Now they have not told me they did anything to this, only that is what I have now and what I had prior to this inspection and repair of the diff would lift perfectly and stablity was fantastic.

I can't tell you what causes the Binding or load if you want cause that is what it actually is, but saying that the tractor never releaves that load even in neutral is the best way to explain it, now you and I know that if in Neutral then it should be in Neutral and no load or resistance but it has only ever free spooled once since all of this repairs happened and I have never been able to cause it again. Honestly I am positive they have given up becuase they have never gone this far and they don't understand why and instead of taking it back and replacing it they have chosen a bad path and don't want to go back the other way at this point which is really crazy.

SO where do you think that binding is then, Cause its massive, but it is less now then the first repair, you see I was blaming the Binding for blowing the diff becuase originally I thought they aligned something wrong and that loaded one axle in the front diff which makes no sense at all and they say its impossible, but I run it full time in 4 wheel drive becuase of the slippery conditions and steep terrain, but back then prior to the diff I did go to 2 wd drive and the resistance from memory in truning was gone?

Also back then I put the slasher on and the Tractor had trouble running it, I do believe that it was also related to all of this, I guess I must throw it back on and test it again to check that as well but it may have been more like the other issues of Shuttle, loader, then steering and nothing left to run the tractor as the load took over.

Prior to the split this tractor has never stalled from the Hydrualic Pump load yet it can be done now so I have no idea.

 

[JWR]

OH MY ! OK, I think I understand current status. By the way, you have separate hydraulic pumps for the steering and then for the rest of the hydraulics a larger pump. Mine is that way and you can probably confirm yours is that way too by checking the spec sheets on the web.

Is there binding and difficulty moving the tractor when you are in 2WD and out of 4WD ? I'm guessing you tried that but it sounded like you were not sure. If the tractor moves freely as it should in 2WD that would point to problems remaining in your front axle OR possibly the part of the transmission that drives the shaft up to the front differential.

Obviously they should never have delivered this tractor back to you in the condition it is in.

 

[Fergie4608]

Thanks JWR, I just went out and tested it as you described becuase its been so long since I drove it that way, but no there is no difference in the binding in 2 wd or 4wd I think originally it was allot of the front diff making it considerably worse. I really wonder what could be put back together wrongly to give the drag, I have just spoke to Allan Hill and I want to say he was extremely helpful and he is doing his best to help go through this so for the first time in a long time I am hopeful that we might be able to get things sorted out. I can tell you that I like to work out why something happens just so you can understand it and something like this that makes no sense at all really is strange. I really hope and desire that Agco/ Massey Ferguson and I can be friends again after this . I totally agree with you that from the very start its been a dealer failure but then the Customer which is me LOL ends up being the Bad Guy and others stop listening becuase what they say makes sense on face value instead of actually looking at the equipment in the field where it is functionally having issues.

 

[Fergie4608]

Thanks Airbiscuit, No I promise to behave and not post anything Lol I Always wanted a quiet and peaceful resolution to this situation, so often its people who let down a product and the Product wears the fault and blame for what happens next and Everyone loses sight of what the issue really was, I have fought to understand what is causing this, and the Fact is that the diff repair has nothing to do with this fault of drag at all. I did ask that they inspect the tractor here on site in actual working conditions so I could demonstrate what was happening and the Dealer was not the least bit interested. I reckon something has been put together wrong, But what I have no idea at all.

 

[Fergie4608]

I just went back again and tested it again to test when I break drive either by shuttling to neutral or using the clutch then there is no difference in Drag, is there another place.
Really we are left with the conclusion that something is put together wrong, there is no noise, there is no whining or Chatter, just resistance which is what my original complaint was that when the dealer fixes something they mess something else up which was were we were at. Only pulling the Tractor apart could ever resolve this question.
I presume they tested the tractor on the flat level ground there but they found no difference in it but all that means is they were not looking for resistance to rolling I guess but being on flat ground you would expect it to stop and I guess if they were using it in low range they may not have expected it to continue rolling.

 

[JWR]

And 2 wheel drive versus 4WD does not make any difference either ? Do the brakes work normally ? No way brakes could be jammed on is there ?

 

[Fergie4608]

They release fine from the pedal, but wouldn't you hear something, and there is no smell or like I would expect it to get worse as it travells and the Brakes get hot there should be an expansion through heat or something and then there really should be smell or are they wet? I guess the only real way to disspell that one would be to get under and remove the bars back to the diff and test drive as everything else looks like its hard to get to?

 

[JWR]

Your brakes are hydraulic of course and not the older type with rods going back to the rear axle. You might be able to experiment while moving downhill at low power and see if gentle brake application makes a difference. I think you parking brake is different on the 4608 than on my 2660. Does it seem to release normally ?

How far have you moved the tractor with it binding/dragging like that ? I'd be afraid to move it a whole lot.

I forgot to re-ask: Does the 2 wheel drive versus 4 WD make any difference ?

 

[onionfmr]

Fergie4608 - I've been following your posts and watching your youtube videos. I really feel for you and the situation with your tractor more than you can know! I've been having my own issues with a MF 1754. However, nothing like the pain you've been going thru! I think you have been more than patient with your issues. I've similar experiences contacting AGCO in the States trying to get my issues resolved. Can't seem to get to anybody that can help me. They want to send me back to the dealer where I purchased it. I've left the technical support staff messages. It has been several months, still haven't heard back. Hoping you get an acceptable solution to your problems!

 

[Fergie4608]

Ok no difference in 4 Wheel Drive or 2 Wheel Drive,
if in low range then it is proportionate to the gear so its load is being increased as the Gears get lower, do you get what I mean High Range 1st 4 wheel drive is a certain amount of resistance, 4th gear low range is really resistant to move and you would find I reckon 1st gear low range would stop it from moving at all on any slope and I am talking about still the shuttle being in neutral, I really am saying low range to high is actually showing the increase in the load/ binding cause the gear would make no difference but the reduction is showing through.
How far well you drive it, its never not engaged, its been 12 weeks like this with a gap not included of 7 weeks sitting at the dealer getting the diff rebuilt. it could even be more but that is how they delivered it back to me and remember the would not respond, I would love to think that you are right and it could be something as stupid as the brakes miss adjusted from the dealer, after the WHS inspection I will try to have a look under it and see if I can see anything that makes sense.

 

[JWR]

By process of elimination the drag/reluctance to move is not front axle related (because it still happens in 2WD) and not something as simple as brakes (because if it were stuck brakes it would not vary with which gear you are in.) Apparently an internal problem in the transmission, clutch or shuttle shift mechanism. Clearly caused by the shop work since it was not that way when it went in and is that way now. Seems that is so obvious that the dealer, the AGCO people and everyone concerned has to admit that. It also seems to me that Mr. Hill should immediately understand why you don't want the people taking it apart again who screwed it up in the first place. If you are able to talk personally with him, I would ask him if he is not concerned about "digging a deeper hole" by allowing that shop to work on it again. That is risk for him and AGCO too.

I don't know what else to suggest. Sure wish you luck with it.

 

[Fergie4608]

Thank you so Much Onionfmr for Your Comments Please tell me more about the issues with your tractor and with Agco, You need to make a list of all the attempts of contact with Agco, I know at this stage it seems like a useless battle and then start a thread and post your experiences, Look I have been told that this is not the way to do it and there are ways to get something sorted but Interestingly its the only time they take notice. Do you realize how many of us have equipment and we are treated like Garbage but until we start to band together with Forums and expose the calias way the Manufacturers treat us, once we start to form a direction I can tell you the bad models will not sell and the ones that look after customers will start to move forward in that direction. Show them public opinion, The biggest thing that you need to understand is if you talk about your experiences and you keep track of it then they cannot touch you, its only if you take off away from that then you will run into trouble. In my Case there is unlimited facts to deal with and many of you need to hear it so that when you look at a new tractor or even a second hand one then it will start to put you in the drivers seat.
It takes time to start a ball rolling but for all our sakes we need to start taking control. And if we help each other spread our stories then we will change the outcomes for many. Keep me posted

 

[onionfmr]

Fergie4608 - don't want to steal your thread as your issues are much more compelling and a lot more serious than mine! I have a couple of threads/posts on my issues. In a nutshell, tractor is a newer tractor, MF 1754 HST with a cab. Delivered late Sept. 2016.

1. After several hours of operation, when you step on the reverse pedal, tractor binds and will not go in reverse. Feels like you have the parking brake set and brakes are dragging. Tractor will move but not easily or very much. THIS IS EXTREMELY ANNOYING AND A SAFETY ISSUE!
2. Hydo pedals switch was defective. Sitting still in gear, tractor would intermittently just move forward or reverse on it's own. Feet on the floor, no where near the pedals. This was a safety issue and was addressed promptly by dealer replacing the switch. Very dangerous situation when backing into the barn or moving around objects. Take your feet off the pedals and looking around for clearance and off goes the tractor on it's own.
3. Tractor jumps out of gear and free rolls. The first time this happened, I was delivering firewood (loader bucket full ) for my neighbor going down a slight incline in 4WD. Tractor jumped out of gear and started free rolling in neutral, I was startled not expecting it and almost hit my neighbor's truck. Now, that I know it will do it, I'm a lot more careful when desending slight grades.
4. Kinked fuel line - several times engine just intermittently shutdown, but would restart. One day, coming from back field, engine sputtered and stopped. Engine wouldn't restart. 3/4 full tank. Eventually, 1/2 hour later, I was able to get tractor running and put in barn. Barely running, but it made it. Called dealer, they thought could be bad fuel, plugged fuel filters. So, I bought 2 new fuel filters, replaced old filters that looked good. Engine would not start or run. So, I climbed under tractor, took off rock shields and starting looking around in an attempt to trace fuel lines. Sure enough, main line was originally cut to long at factory and kinked. Repositioned fuel line, started tractor and everything ran fine!
5. 3 point arms lever in cab was frozen solid. Tractor is always stored inside, wasn't washed recently, temperatures were at least in the 50-60s. Went to put arms down to attach sickle bar mower. Lever wouldn't move. That day I had had enough! Just turned tractor off and went and did something else. It has only done that twice. Next day lever was free and arms worked fine.
6. Jumpy 3 point arms. This one is on me. When tractor was originally delivered, grease was pouring out of all visible zerk fittings. I never checked all fittings. Turns out fitting on 3 point cylinder was bone dry. I greased it and that solved that problem.

There have been lots of other smaller issues with things not adjusted correctly or cosmetic items. I've just repaired them and moved on. I've done a complete hydro oil and filter change twice now, 95 hours on tractor. Still having an intermittent problem with reverse. When the tractor was originally delivered the transmission was 1 1/2 gallons overfilled. The 2 local dealers are good people. But, I have limited confidence in their ability to fix my problems. I get a lot of your not running at enough RPMS, what 2400 RPMS isn't enough for reverse or they all do that.

After several attempts to get AGCO to do something, they finally gave me a phone number of a large servicing dealer that was a 3 hour drive from my house. I called them and then drove out to see them in person to review my issues. To get them to look at my tractor is $100/hour for their tech to drive to my property, time here to diagnose and drive back. Same for them to come and pick it up. If it is warranty issue they will handle repairs. But, I will be out for pickup and delivery back, approximately $1,200. Really! I'm thinking it is a pump problem which according to dealer will require splitting the tractor.

I've had some serious health issues lately (really changes your prespective on things) and have been concentrating on getting well and haven't felt up to really pushing hard to get tractor fixed. Since, it will take that to get it fixed. There are days that I am just happy to be able walk outside. The large servicing dealer thought that the hydro oil and filter changes might solve my reverse problem. I hoped as well.

Didn't mean to steal your thread and sorry to be so longwinded! But, wanted you to see that you are not alone! My tractor would be great if it would just run right!

 

[Fergie4608]

Ok I will post something later that will help with understanding many things, I am so very sorry My Friend to hear you are not well and it's absolutely unaceptable that you a sick Man have to fight to get something, Listen Guys speak up, he is not going on about cosmetics, he mentions something but he is wanting something that is totally unreasonable here, A safe and reliable working platform, So did the salesman tell you, you are going to love this it will try to kill you or destroy property of yours or others, it will be dangerous at all times of operation, I guess your like me and you said **** give me some of that Heart ache please Sir.
Rubbish they tell you its great, these are the features you will love ETC ETC. In my Case Mine was demonstrated with the lethal Launching but I trusted the dealer Salesman as the Dealer had been there for as long as I can remember, Oh that is just adjustment it will be fine and bugger me it was delivered to me and the next morning at opening I was in the showroom complaining of the lethal nature, Like you here is where the excuses started, oh its sticky servo's, the loader just bleeding up or down of its own accord is just sticky Valves they will wear in and get better, 21 months later what are the chances, the steering just dissappearing and not being there randomly well I will be honest he said he had no clue at all, but if it gets worse then we will fix it, still waiting on that one.
Ok SO where does this leave us, it leaves us as Brothers all stuck with shoddy gear and in many cases life threatening gear, I really take offence at them saying to you they are all like that, Say What, So what do we do, film the thing, and post and we all need to start to Share, we need to actually disslike and say we rated that video with a dislike for the faulty gear so we start a trend where we clearly state our dissaproval of bad workmanship, bad service, Dangerous equipment and more importantly, I notice how many times we say but the dealers are nice guys, think about how conditioned we are to be polite even though the business just put there hand in your pocket to steal from you!!!!!!!!
You are now spending money that you should not have to spend trying to repair something that should not have those defects in them in the first place but now you are a part of their system and then they insult you by saying they are all like that, well why did you not tell me before I bought it.
Agco Tell me that I am a bad Guy and no one wants to play with me any more for fear of being filmed or being held accountable of social media, I am a bad guy because my equipment sold by them has many multiple Life threatening defects in it that have cost me a great deal of money and nearly cost me my life many times, and I am stuck with the financial burden of trying to make it safe while its under warranty? those are the facts, and because of in my experience incompetent health and safety systems in their work place my life is put in danger daily so I am the Bad Guy? without you guys and possibly Girls I would have no support at all, they have not tried to solve one of these LETHAL defects, my Asset has been mechanically destroyed by the dealers inaction to repair these issues and I am the BAD GUY, if we start shining lights onto the equipment that is lethal first then we work back from there and other people can start telling us of good gear then we can steer our purchases to the dealers that only sell sound equipment and they get straight into fixing anything that shows up then they will prosper and the ones selling problems will die and die very quickly.

Never be worried about stealing the thread we can start a new one if need be as I am going to be here a long time because if Agco think I am going away then they are in for a fun time, I am only just getting started with shinning a light on the facts and unless I get a new tractor very soon then what follows as this grows will see changes happening world wide that will rock their socks off. We Paid for Safe equipment we need safe equipment, every Family member needs to come home every day and we need to lift our standards of what we will accept and tolerate, only by sharing information can we weed out the rogues and thieves that threaten out lives and the lives of our Families because many of us work in situations where the whole family use the equipment, but we stand there saying oh and be careful of this and becareful of that, oh and it does this and its does that !!!!!!!!! then I go you know what I best be the only one operating it because thousands upon thousands of hours operating means I have the best chance. Why do I still operate it, I don't have the money to un rip myself off and no one has offered yet a replacement and at no time have they fixed the machine, 2 things in total have been repair but 2 more have been created equally as lethal as the others. Lift you Game Agco world wide or pay the price, many many Giants have been destroyed in manufacturing over the years because of Attitude and calias disregard for the customers safety.

 

[Fergie4608]

Ok Guys to put all this in perspective, this video was before the Massey Ferguson can't lift the bucket of Grass.
But as I promised I am just compressing the video's after Work Place Health and Safety Qld inspected the Tractor and have taken my Statements and they were all over the Tractor.
The next video's to be posted will include the full story of Purchase and the Facts around attempts to get Lethal defects fixed.
Yours Truly

Garry