WayneB
Elite Member
One thing for sure I will be keeping track of the fuel cost and will know better next year at this time.
LP gas company question
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One thing for sure I will be keeping track of the fuel cost and will know better next year at this time.
RayMunising
Silver Member
The higher the fuel cost the faster the payback will be for the tankless and the more sense (and cents) the tankless makes to use.
schmism
Super Member
please note how efficient each device using each fuel is.
if on avg 1 gallon of fuel oil has 34% available BTU's than propane but is 40% less efficient at burning that gallon of fuel vs propane, you have gained nothing by using the fuel oil.
dont forget to take the efficiency into calculating whats cheapest to run.
WayneB
Elite Member
Ray you are so right! Actually, we built a fire the other night (31 degrees and a bit of frost) so the heating season begins for us!
Maintaining hot water (stand-by use) along with the furnace running year around just so we can take a hot shower or wash the dishes always bothers me.
You better hurry up and get that tractor so you can keep the driveway open LOL
Wayne
WayneB
Elite Member
You are right Steve and I am sure I am not the only one out there that really doesn't know the efficiency of my heating sources.
I do know the furnace is really old and not efficient, and way back when we installed it I just felt that it was best to have a tankless system (coil in the boiler) than have a large hot water tank that would have to be replaced. I think we were paying around 39 cents a gallon for oil back then. Waste was the norm, now the pinch at the pump has hit home too. I will be keeping the actual cost of heating our domestic water this year and will have a good feel for it come spring.
Wayne
kenmac
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I know everyone has their opinions on these tankless W.H.'s
I've been in the plumbing/ gas businees for 25 yrs. For some reason I'am still not sold on tankless.I have been to several MFG. classes on these tankless W.H.'s Too many expensive parts that can & will fail. Not to mention water tubes that will stop up if not properly maintained.when they fire you are talking 199,000 BTU . compare that to a tank type @ 32,000 BTU. & Almost o maintance. Even at my cost . They are still expensive
OP
Sigarms
Super Star Member
Ken
I think part of the equation is what type of water heater is going to be replaced, an electric or gravity vent compared to a direct vent or power vent.
Fact is, price wise, going to a power or direct vent water heater will run you about as much as a tankless.
Am I sold on the "high" returns tankless waters claim?
No, and there are some variables that the homeowner must think about if they think they will save money with going tankless.
Such as three people taking 10 minutes in the shower each (total 30 minute run time) with a standard water compared to 20 (total 60 minute run time) minutes each because they won't run out of hot water using a tankless. That's an extra 15 hours of run time a month for the tankless just because the homeowner won't run out of hotwater.
For myself, I have a 20 year old 50 gallon direct vent water heater in the basement. When it goes, I'm going tankless (and yes, I'll clean it each year with vinigar due to the possibility of scale build up on well water). I'm figuring I may not say any money, but I'm not going to run out of hot water
Pilot
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Back to propane & furnaces, our propane pre-buy cost this year was quoted at $3.28 per gallon! They are crazy if they really think I will pay that much.
So we are talking to heat pump folks. Our electric rates run about $.10 per KWH and I figure we can save close to $2,000 per year with a heat pump.
There's a spreadsheet at www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls to help do the calculations.
So we are talking to heat pump folks. Our electric rates run about $.10 per KWH and I figure we can save close to $2,000 per year with a heat pump.
There's a spreadsheet at www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls to help do the calculations.
kenmac
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Talked to my sister today. She is on propane. She doesn't use very much( only cooking/space heater for back up heat. Said her propane co. want's to charge her a fee becaause her usage was low & she hasn't ordered in a while. I told her to tell them to come get their tank & pay her for the gas that is in it ..She did & they said they would wave the fee this time.. Anyone else have this problem ??
I put in a tankless for $600 (just for the unit) and got a rebate from the feds for $300 of that. A basic power vent tank heater would have cost me about the same money to buy (actually $300 more considering the rebate). That's why I went with a tankless.
As far as fuel savings, I'm not sure how they figured that, since it would completely depend on your water usage. The more water you use throughout different times of day, the better deal a tank heater is. If you use hot water only a few times a day (as I do... mostly in the morning), the more energy you are wasting by keeping hot water on standby 24 hours a day.
RayMunising
Silver Member
I would imagine (just guessing here) that Consumer Reports based fuel savings on an average size family using an average amount of hot water using an average cost for natural gas and an average price for the unit. Individual mileage will certainly vary. Aside from the complexity of a tankless heater the major drawback to it is the relatively high initial cost of the unit compared to a standard hot water heater. If you managed to get a tankless for $300 after rebate you've done away with that hurdle.
The payback for a high efficient (car, heating system, hot water heater, etc.) will be greatest 1) the more it is used, 2) the higher the fuel cost and 3) the lower the initial price difference between a high efficiency unit verse a low efficient unit.
So a tankless makes the most sense if you use a lot of hot water and/or the fuel you use to heat water is high and/or the difference in price of a tankless verses a standard water heater is low.
The issue of complexity is something else. I personally lean towards the principle of "keep it simple" because one or two service calls can wipe out a lot of savings real fast! But than again, remember "the good old days" when cars weren't computer controlled and fuel injected? Remember when they had carbs and chokes? When was the last time you turned the key in your car/truck and it didn't start? The high tech cars of today certainly are a VAST improvement over those old cars. I could work on those old cars and had to on a regular basis. Cars of today I couldn't do anything with but the nice part of that is I've never needed to!
Okay, I see I'm now completely off topic. Why am I talking about cars??? Please ignore all that nonsense! Back to water heaters ...
I would think the standby loss of a standard hot water heater would be fairly constant whether you use a lot of hot water or a little. You basically have a tank of 130 degree water sitting there all the time. So I don't think using hot water just a few times a day would have much effect positive or negative on the efficiency of a standard tank type water.
PS - I see some people are comparing propane costs. I just paid $2.98 per gallon for propane here in SE Michigan. Last year I paid $1.98. We use about 300 gallons a year. I have our tank topped off once a year. We use propane for drying clothes, hot water (20 year old standard tank type) and backup heat. Our primary source of heat is wood ... 3 cords/year.
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Actually it is the other way around for a tankless heater... the tankless heater just saves you standby losses... it is extremely inefficient at heating water compared to tank heaters. So the more hot water you use, the better you are with a tank heater. The most obvious way to see this is to just look at the venting requirements. A tankless heater has *hot* exhaust. It is burning a whole lot of fuel (much more than the boiler/furnace that heats the entire house) and throwing a lot of that heat out of the exhaust. A modern powervent tank heater can be vented with PVC pipe because the exhaust is so cool. On efficiency the tank wins. Standby loses are the only place it loses out.
I hear ya there, but I don't see a difference in complexity between a tankless and a modern power vent water heater. You have the ignition system, you have the power venting system, a burner, and the same kind of ignition controls. The only difference really is the size of the burner and heat exchanger and the fact that one of them has a tank. Of course a naturally aspirated water heater with a standing pilot would be more simple, but natural aspiration was not an option for me and I don't really want anything around with a standing pilot.
The loss comes from that 130+ degree water sitting in a 50 degree basement and having to be warmed up throughout the day when you aren't using it. I figure I don't need water kept warm while I'm at work or while I'm sleeping. I need it once or twice a day. With a tankless I'm only heating water once or twice a day, when I need it.
I just paid $2.29 this summer. A lot more than last year, but a few years ago I was heating with fuel oil (with 80% efficiency vs 98% now) and using electricity for everything else, so I'm still happy that I converted
.
CurlyDave
Elite Member
There is a basic fallacy in the way people think about tank-type heaters. The "wasted" heat lost from a tank full of hot water is only "wasted" if you put the tank in the wrong place.
My tank-type water heater is in the garage I use as a shop. In the winter, the heat from the tank takes the chill off the garage quite nicely and I don't consider it "wasted" heat, it is low-level shop heating. If I am going to work in there for any length of time, I supplement with an electric heater, but if I am just going to spend a few minutes looking for a tool, it is fine "as is". So, I am only wasting heat half the year instead of all year long. Makes a big difference in the economics.
My tank-type water heater is in the garage I use as a shop. In the winter, the heat from the tank takes the chill off the garage quite nicely and I don't consider it "wasted" heat, it is low-level shop heating. If I am going to work in there for any length of time, I supplement with an electric heater, but if I am just going to spend a few minutes looking for a tool, it is fine "as is". So, I am only wasting heat half the year instead of all year long. Makes a big difference in the economics.
RayMunising
Silver Member
I thought a tankless actually heated the water more efficiently than a tank type heater! If you're correct and all you're saving is standby loss than the primary variables would simply be the amount of insulation the tank type heater has and the difference in temperature between the water in the tank and the air temperature where the tank is located. Or do as CurlyDave suggests and put the tank heater in a place where the lost heat serves a purpose.
What about comparing a standard tank heater to a high efficiency heater. Does a "high efficiency" tank type heater just have more insulation around it to reduce heat loss or did they do something to improve the heat exchanger to make a high efficiency tank heat more efficient?
WayneB
Elite Member
I guess I am viewing this somewhat different than most people. I just switched from a "tankless system" to an "On Demand system". The old system was part of the furnace boiler and required that I run the furnace 12 months continuously. This just didn't make since to me during the summer months. Nothing gets under my skin more than to hear the furnace kick on and the outside temperature is 84 degrees F!
At our summer home (really a lakeside camp) I installed an On Demand system five or six years ago with the key reason being the ease of winterizing the system and being able to get to camp at mid-night and being able to take a shower immediately upon arriving.
Back then there were all kinds of arguments regarding the cost expenditures of the systems, service issues, failure parts, lack of support, return on investment, it seemed the list just went on and on.
Well, I can say after six years the only failure I have had is I lost a ceramic gasket that goes on the outlet coupling and the manufacturer sent it to me over-night and free of charge. Told me to write up a sales order for the gasket would cost more than to just give it to me. I call that good service. So the bottom line for this application it was the best thing I could have done. We will be going up there for Columbus weekend to close up for the year and it will be nice to complete the task in about half an hour with no major amounts of water to deal with.
When the local oil prices went over $3.50 a gallon for number 2 heating oil I decided I had to do something to cut my initial cost for heating water and also heating our home in the winter time.
We ended up closing off a portion of our home and resorting to wood as our main source of heat. This worked fine, but we still had one room with a heat zone (laundry and bathroom) and domestic hot water requirement. Our oil usage last year was about $700.00. This included some heating in the main part of the house on extremely cold nights when the wood stove did not provide enough heat through out the night. This cost was for a period of six months billings.
Recently I installed the "On Demand hot water heater" and have shut-off the furnace. I must say it is taking a bit of time to come to grips with it, but I have not heard the furnace kick on during the past two weeks and that is a good feeling. If anyone would like a spreedsheet of the expenditures for the unit and installation cost let me know. Including tools, unit, exhaust system and gas and water plumbing parts it is just over $1,200. That is with me doing all of the work!
I am pretty sure there will be a night or two this winter that we will have to turn on the furnace and I might even have to add something in the cellar to protect against the cold during our deep cold spell that we get every winter.
I do keep records on our monthly expenditures so will be able to evaluate what it actually cost to operate the system over a period of months. The major savings we have right now is heating oil and I am not sure just how we could afford to heat our home if we had to rely of oil. Living in the north country we do not have the air conditioning cost, but we certainly have heating cost. There are many homes here that will use over $4K of heating oil this coming winter season.
I will keep an eye on tank gauge this year for sure and hope to be able to smile come spring if the indicator hasn't gone down toward empty.
Wayne
At our summer home (really a lakeside camp) I installed an On Demand system five or six years ago with the key reason being the ease of winterizing the system and being able to get to camp at mid-night and being able to take a shower immediately upon arriving.
Back then there were all kinds of arguments regarding the cost expenditures of the systems, service issues, failure parts, lack of support, return on investment, it seemed the list just went on and on.
Well, I can say after six years the only failure I have had is I lost a ceramic gasket that goes on the outlet coupling and the manufacturer sent it to me over-night and free of charge. Told me to write up a sales order for the gasket would cost more than to just give it to me. I call that good service. So the bottom line for this application it was the best thing I could have done. We will be going up there for Columbus weekend to close up for the year and it will be nice to complete the task in about half an hour with no major amounts of water to deal with.
When the local oil prices went over $3.50 a gallon for number 2 heating oil I decided I had to do something to cut my initial cost for heating water and also heating our home in the winter time.
We ended up closing off a portion of our home and resorting to wood as our main source of heat. This worked fine, but we still had one room with a heat zone (laundry and bathroom) and domestic hot water requirement. Our oil usage last year was about $700.00. This included some heating in the main part of the house on extremely cold nights when the wood stove did not provide enough heat through out the night. This cost was for a period of six months billings.
Recently I installed the "On Demand hot water heater" and have shut-off the furnace. I must say it is taking a bit of time to come to grips with it, but I have not heard the furnace kick on during the past two weeks and that is a good feeling. If anyone would like a spreedsheet of the expenditures for the unit and installation cost let me know. Including tools, unit, exhaust system and gas and water plumbing parts it is just over $1,200. That is with me doing all of the work!
I am pretty sure there will be a night or two this winter that we will have to turn on the furnace and I might even have to add something in the cellar to protect against the cold during our deep cold spell that we get every winter.
I do keep records on our monthly expenditures so will be able to evaluate what it actually cost to operate the system over a period of months. The major savings we have right now is heating oil and I am not sure just how we could afford to heat our home if we had to rely of oil. Living in the north country we do not have the air conditioning cost, but we certainly have heating cost. There are many homes here that will use over $4K of heating oil this coming winter season.
I will keep an eye on tank gauge this year for sure and hope to be able to smile come spring if the indicator hasn't gone down toward empty.
Wayne
kenmac
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Using standard combustion efficiency they come out lower so the government came up with a new efficiency scale just for water heaters. Not sure what the units are exactly, but it's not the typical 80%, 98%, whatever that you calculate to determine furnace/boiler efficiency. That number would make the tankless heaters look really bad.
I think the high efficiency tank heaters mostly just pile on the insulation to reduce standby losses. They always seem to have a ton of insulation on them. I'm not sure if the combustion efficiency is actually any different.
I went with the tankless since I was coming from electric tank heater (sitting in the middle of the basement... with no place to vent) so I had to move the whole thing anyway. If I already had a tank heater and didn't have to relocate everything and put in a new vent, I would have gone with a straight swap just because it would have been so much easier. I think the difference is pretty marginal. The space savings is probably a better feature than the fuel savings.
RayMunising
Silver Member
dmccarty
Super Star Member
When we built the house we looked at tank water heaters and instant water heaters. I ruled out the on demand water heater due to price and performance. We are on a well so the water temp is cold all year around. And we have power not gas. The on demand heaters will only give you a N number of degrees increase in the water temperature. The electric on demand heaters were going to be iffy in our situation.
The original plan was to have solar water heating to bump up the temp of the water and hopefully provide all/most or our water heating needs. The on demand heater was back up. But adding the cost of solar and the on demand heater just did not make money sense. And the solar water heater systems needed a tank anyway...
So we went with an 80 gallon water heater. Why 80 gallons? First there are three females in the house not including the two dogs. But what really sold the 80 gallon tank was that it was cheaper to operate than many of the 40/60 gallon models. The solar water systems I was looking into at the time seemed to spec a 80 gallon tank so we bought the 80 gallon tank.
Best I can tell the only difference between the 80 gallon and other models is that ours was a bit better built and had a lot more insulation.
Based on the energy sticker and our power use I think the water heater cost us about $30 a month. Our average year round power bill is $115-120 so this is a big chunk of our power expense. Really want to put in the solar water heating system....
Later,
Dan
The original plan was to have solar water heating to bump up the temp of the water and hopefully provide all/most or our water heating needs. The on demand heater was back up. But adding the cost of solar and the on demand heater just did not make money sense. And the solar water heater systems needed a tank anyway...
So we went with an 80 gallon water heater. Why 80 gallons? First there are three females in the house not including the two dogs.
But what really sold the 80 gallon tank was that it was cheaper to operate than many of the 40/60 gallon models. The solar water systems I was looking into at the time seemed to spec a 80 gallon tank so we bought the 80 gallon tank. Best I can tell the only difference between the 80 gallon and other models is that ours was a bit better built and had a lot more insulation.
Based on the energy sticker and our power use I think the water heater cost us about $30 a month. Our average year round power bill is $115-120 so this is a big chunk of our power expense. Really want to put in the solar water heating system....
Later,
Dan
