KL120 Loader Flexing

HODAK · Apr 9, 2006

Wow..........I'm going to have to agree with Dargo on this one.
You can put stress on a loader without a toothbar, that's true. But, a toothbar would make it a lot easier to do this and it would probably occur more often - my opinion. If I need to dig into the ground, I bring the 555 Ford BH home from work. That's just the type of ground I have and also why I don't have a hoe on the tractor /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif.

Dargo · Apr 9, 2006

( Wow..........I'm going to have to agree with Dargo on this one. )

That's okay. I'm officially considered a traitor anyway because I'm just not buying the argument that Kioti loaders are inherently weak.

unhappykioti · Apr 9, 2006

Man you guys are out there. What is the point of having a FEL if you are not going to use it? We're not talking about tonka toys here. All you are going on is your silly opinions, where's the proof????????? Maybe these MFG reps or dealers or who ever they are don't want toothbars on their equipment because it is inferior. I'm really curious what you do with your FEL, maybe you just look at it because you don't want to scratch the paint.

tractorhill · Apr 10, 2006

Woods makes loader and tooth bar for their loader, I sold them and have no Problem, But you need to teach the custom about the use of tooth bar.

Glen_Ippolito · Apr 10, 2006

Bob,
Why don't we give this try! I've noticed from your past posts that your NH doesn’t have a tooth bar. Why don't you purchase one and then we will test again one year from now. Also I would like you to retest your loader flex following the same procedures as everyone else. I’ve also noticed you stated in another post that some manufactures have more loader flex then others. I can’t understand how you can make that comment seeing that you never preformed the test accurately on your NH. Does that mean NH’s are included in the Manufactures with loader flex? Please retest I would like to see your results.

Thanks
Glen

Bob_Skurka · Apr 10, 2006

( Bob,
Why don't we give this try! I've noticed from your past posts that your NH doesn’t have a tooth bar. Why don't you purchase one and then we will test again one year from now. )

I have a toothbar on the Kubota's bucket, I don't need 2 tractors with toothbars.

But I rarely pry things up with the CORNER of any of my loaders. If I need to pry things out of the ground, I use the teeth in the center of the bucket. Seems pretty silly to me to use the corner of the bucket for prying anything.

Glen_Ippolito · Apr 10, 2006

LIke I said please retest following the proper procedure like everyone else.

turbo36 · Apr 10, 2006

( /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Are you going to make me stand corrupted; er, corrected? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Still, did you notice any additional flex lately? You're right, any adds onto the FEL are considered "no-no's". The chief tech at my local JD place seemed to notice that he saw more issues with people adding the tooth bars. Many years ago he is who talked me out of ever getting one. Since then, I have had Kubota and CNH reps tell me that they strongly advised against tooth bars.

I'm going to put the thumb screws and bright lights to Bob. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I have good information on where his attorney went to school and, I have a good source who claims that Bob's attorney did actually drop the bar of soap. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif )

JD does offer a tooth bar as an option so that pretty much nullifies the argument that tooth bars will automatically void your loader warranty.
I think the problem with the Kioti loader design is that the access hole in the cross tube has created a stress riser in a structural member that was meant to evenly balance the stress between each of the loader arms. In an unbalanced condition the stress flows from one side to the other and concentrates at the corners of the cut out and causing it to crack. Usually during the design stage some kind of testing or simulation either manually or computer aided is done looking for this potential condition. When a product is designed certain assumptions are made as to how it will be used perhaps the Kioti engineers ignored the fact that these loaders are likely to be used in an unbalanced conditioned.
I remember when I was a young engineer just starting out in the design area my Supervisor told me it was just as important to imagine how a product will be "misused" as well as how it will be used.

HODAK · Apr 10, 2006

unhappykioti -

I use my loader plenty, but there are times when it's silly to waste a lot of time with one machine when another more capable machine is readily available. Around my place, a toothbar wouldn't help me much with what I do. Oh, and I do like to look at the loader......... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Glen_Ippolito · Apr 10, 2006

But is the kubota a curved arm loader?

Bob_Skurka · Apr 10, 2006

( But is the kubota a curved arm loader? )

No, but it has a toothbar.

I still think people who think a toothbar voids a warrenty claim are nuts.

KiotiJohn · Apr 10, 2006

( No, but it has a toothbar.

I still think people who think a toothbar voids a warrenty claim are nuts. )
I know that I said it MAY void a warranty, and it sure could if the MFG wanted to push it, if they don't offer one as an option.

I doubt seriously if the MFG of any brand would push it that far, but you know they could. There is a list of options on most sites of the things recommended by the company, toothbars are not usually one of them.

As to not using my loader, I have a toothbar, and I use the heck out of my loader, no cracks.
John

Glen_Ippolito · Apr 10, 2006

No Bob my point is. As you stated in other post that some manufactures have issues with stress on there loaders, which I'm pretty sure you were talking about KIOTI. You also stated that NH loaders have no issues.

I would really like to see an accurate test with your NH loader. To make sure your statements are correct.

Steve_Miller · Apr 10, 2006

Anyhow I am just curoius about this, please don't flame or bash anything here as I would like to keep it about civil. 

Steve

MossRoad · Apr 11, 2006

MODERATOR's NOTE:

Some posts were pruned from this thread at the request of some members. No PMs were sent, as they asked for them to be removed. As Steve asked, let's keep it civil.

If you replied to one of the posts that was removed, your post will have gone away as well. Sorry, that is the nature of the setup here. Feel free to reply to Steve to keep the discussion going.

turbo36 · Apr 11, 2006

( "the extension of the tooth bar would add leverage and if that was asymmetric as with the example of snagging a root with the distal teeth then you would be applying more torque force to the loader frame especially when lifting or curling."

I think this is the problem. The length of the lever on the working end of the bucket doesn't matter. The only force being generated comes from the hydraulics. The toothbar length could be 10 feet but the hydraulic system can only push so hard on it before stalling. The toothbar is just the tip of the tool, the muscle of the tool is what limits the system. Try thinking of it in reverse, teeth don't apply leverage to the tractor, the tractor applies leverage to the teeth.

I certainly agree that a FEL will live a longer life if it sits in the garage collecting dust. )

Highbeam, as a fellow engineer I agree with you. Maybe it would help to put it another way; If you put a lever a mile long on one corner of the bucket and tried to lift it nothing would happen because the force needed to lift the bucket would exceed the force available from the hydraulics. The frame would just twist within the design limits. So if the loader was a big massive design the bucket would sit the flat and parallel to the ground, no twist at all because the hydraulics would stall out before the frame twisted.
We all know that the the loader design is a compromise between strength and cost it should be no stronger then the market is willing to pay for.
Now if I was designing this loader I would start with the assumption that the loader will be loaded on on corner only and determine the number of times this would happen in the design lifetime ( that I choose) then simulate the stress cycle to determine when I will have a failure, if the failure occurs at a time longer then my design lifetime then I have a winner if not then I have to beef up the design or limit the force or the number of cycles.