KL120 Loader Flexing

Dodgeram · Apr 3, 2006

Just went out to the garage, mine does NOT have the bracing TPDonnely has.
I thought I read previously that his came from the dealer that way, maybe the dealer installed it?
Tom

450EXC · Apr 3, 2006

Excelent race report.

I never did an enduro but only 11 minutes back sounds like a big trophy. You'll have to do the loader deflection test by putting your trophy on one side of the bucket checking the sag.

I don't think most people know that formula:

Wet tree root on 45* angle + your front tire = faceplant

Now back to our regular scheduled programing.

Thanks, Larry

Highbeam · Apr 3, 2006

Oh yes, a 45 degree horizontal angle 6inch root just underwater in the mud puddle = laying sideways in the puddle because you didn't antipate the rapid drop in elevation and no time to put a foot down.

11 minutes at the last check, meaning the previous couple of checks were 5 and then 8 so the points were adding up. I was pushing and wasn't getting passed so not sure how everyone else did.

The loader improvement, if done by Kioti, shows a resolved defect. I hope, I hope, I hope this is a Kioti thing. Any dealers on the board to look at a new machine in their yard?

KiotiJohn · Apr 4, 2006

I feel we can be assured that the dealer did not add the bracing to the loader. I'm sure that Kioti had had this problem show up, and had the loader fabricator correct it with better bracing. Then they would deal with loaders of the same problem on a piece by piece basis, hoping that warranties would be out by the time it showed up. Any company would probably proceed this way.

I'm sure you should have a new loader, or at least the frontal parts that experienced the problem.
John

Highbeam · Apr 4, 2006

I expect product evolution in response to field discovered weaknesses. Every year the auto makers come up with a new and improved version in response to market demands.

It actually gives me some confidence that Kioti is on the ball. Could someone with a spankin new loader, or at least pretty dang new, check to see if they have this new reinforcement from Kioti? I'm trying to get a timeline of the improvement. There's a fine line between product improvement/evolution, as needed replacement, and recall.

Is there some reason you dealers are being awfully quiet here or am I just anxious and not very patient? Is mum the word? Maybe I'm just anxious.

Let me make a new thread since maybe dealers aren't excited about reading about loader flexing.

Bob_Skurka · Apr 4, 2006

( I'm sure that Kioti had had this problem show up, and had the loader fabricator correct it with better bracing. Then they would deal with loaders of the same problem on a piece by piece basis, hoping that warranties would be out by the time it showed up.

Any company would probably proceed this way. )

I'm not so sure about that. I think that a larger company might issue a recall.

I know I had a recall on one of my loaders (to prevent brand wars I will leave the brand name out but PM me if you want to know the brand and model of the loader). It was based on an issue that "may occur" on "some" loaders. I wish I still had the notice. Turns out mine was one that could have had the problem. All it was was a simple hydraulic fitting. Some loaders had a low profile unit installed and others had a high profile unit. But all the owners of the loaders were apparently contacted because the manufacturer didn't know which had which. It was a simple visual inspection that could be done by the owner. If you had the "wrong" fitting, the dealer showed up, picked up the tractor, replaced the fitting and returned it to you.

Personally I think it says something about the company that they took a proactive stance and issued the alert to all owners of the loader. They obviously didn't want a loader out in the market that would fail to perform as expected. I'd rather they fix all the defective ones rather than just wait to see who complains and fix only those.

Further, to get out of fixing something in hopes that the warrenty would expire before the owner notices the problem is somewhat questionable in the ethics department. JMHO

Highbeam · Apr 4, 2006

The automotive business handles this with a Technical Service Bulletin where if you come in to the dealer with a particular problem then they replace the part with the improved version for free. Recalls are generally only forced with safety issues but it would be a great PR move here.

There is more to this new loader than meets the eye. We are about to see whether or not Kioti has what it takes to survive. We are about to see if they do the right thing.

KiotiJohn · Apr 4, 2006

( I'm not so sure about that. I think that a larger company might issue a recall. )
Bob, not to be argumentative, but I have to say that you are very likely not aware of what went on with that issue before you ever heard anything from the company. Threats of lawsuits over that issue may have precipitated the recall.

We have had in this country many instances where companies had to be forced into recalls, one example, outside gas tanks on pickup trucks that exploded in accidents. That was certainly a BIG company. There are many others. Companies seem to rarely offer a recall unless there is someone, some organization, that pushes them into it.

I think it is naive to believe in this day and age that any company is going to call out a problem and fix it unless they clearly see that it is ultimately going to cost them more in the long run if they don't.

In the case of your loader, the valve could have led to a terrible hydraulic pressure accident that would have likely let to lawsuits costing in the millions, probably much more than just a recall would have cost.

John

Bob_Skurka · Apr 4, 2006

John, I never said I knew the background. And no doubt a high pressure hydaulic failure could result in a potential lawsuit (but given the contained location of this fitting I doubt that anyone would have been squirted if the fitting cracked. . . it is more likely the loader would leak down and fail to function).

But lets take a look at Highbeam's loader. If that cracks through while in use, it would be a catastrophic failure that could lead to injury or death of the operator or someone nearby. Different problem similar outcome = lawsuit!

But the companies certainly are handling it differently.

Heck just from the liability standpoint I'd think that it would be nuts for any manufacturer to approve of a repair job by a dealer that altered the structural members of a loader. Not being brand specific here. Just observing and commenting.

But I'd think a liability lawyer would be able to have a field day if ANY BRAND of loader was repaired that way and it gave way. First the lawyer would go after the manufacturer for not recalling a loader that had stress cracks. Then they'd go after the repair shop for "engineering" a fix without consulting real engineers!

John wrote: Then they would deal with loaders of the same problem on a piece by piece basis, hoping that warranties would be out by the time it showed up. Any company would probably proceed this way. 
Further, they woud very likely make a really big deal about the fact that the company was aware of the problem and wanted to let people's warrenties expires instead of fixing them under warrenty or via a recall. Not the best business practices for a company that wants to develop a good reputation. And that would also probably be grounds for a class action suit by people who owned the loaders.

KiotiJohn · Apr 4, 2006

( John, I never said I knew the background. )
No, you didn't. But what you DID say is that a bigger company might issue a recall because your's did. You don't know why they did, but you make it out as though that company was doing something out of the goodness of their hearts, or for good PR or whatever reason, but you can bet it was to save money in the long run.

What we know of Joe's situation tells me that Kioti wasn't included a whole lot in this fix, and we have yet to hear anything about discussions with Kioti rather than just with the dealer.

For all we know, the company to which you refer was forced into a recall and letting each owner know about the defect. Unless we know those circumstances, your points are moot.

John

Bob_Skurka · Apr 4, 2006

No, you didn't. But what you DID say is that a bigger company might issue a recall because your's did. You don't know why they did, but you make it out as though that company was doing something out of the goodness of their hearts, or for good PR or whatever reason, but you can bet it was to save money in the long run.

What we know of Joe's situation tells me that Kioti wasn't included a whole lot in this fix, and we have yet to hear anything about discussions with Kioti rather than just with the dealer.

For all we know, the company to which you refer was forced into a recall and letting each owner know about the defect. Unless we know those circumstances, your points are moot.

John 

John, no company is going to do things out of the goodness of their hearts, but they will do what is right if it protects their business. Please don't try to imply things in my posts that are not there. But to suggest that the point is moot is simply incorrect.

Highbeam · Apr 4, 2006

"At KIOTI, customers are always our #1 priority. Whether you are researching your first compact tractor purchase, a new KIOTI customer, or a long-time tractor owner, you are an essential part of our on-going commitment to provide higher service standards for compact tractors owners and first-time buyers.
In fact, our goal is to provide and maintain the highest levels of customer service in the industry. From state-of-the art manufacturing lines and exceptional compact tractors to accessible, friendly dealerships and responsive after-sales service - we want to be the best. "

Yep, they want to be the best. They want to be the best. Companies that want to be the best don't try to eek through the warranty period to stick customers. I am still confident that Kioti will do the right thing here.

KiotiJohn · Apr 4, 2006

( Companies that want to be the best don't try to eek through the warranty period to stick customers. I am still confident that Kioti will do the right thing here. )
Finally someone responded the way I hoped when I posted the remarks that I did.

We humans have a way of trying everyone and everything in the "press" or forums sometimes before the accused has had full opportunity to correct the problem. Days are going by here, and Joe, you haven't posted one thing about talking to the dealer to get this outcome changed to your liking.

Are we just going to keep on pounding on this, getting all these unqualified opinions? I think most of us on on your side in this issue, and hope that you get a proper fix, but just doing it here isn't getting you anywhere.

I don't mean this to be offensive, but this whole thread is not producing any results for YOU.
John

Highbeam · Apr 4, 2006

I was awaiting a return call from my dealer and instead, I called him 5 minutes ago. The message I left him on Saturday was that I would be needing a new loader to replace the welded one. Today I started by telling him that the loader repair was unacceptable based on aesthetics, resale, and long term integrity. He had already ordered the new loader frame and it is on the way in to be replaced. Turns out that he too was embarassed by the repair quality though the weld repair was done under the direction of Kioti.

The "frame" will be replaced and that would imply to me that the various pieces will be transferred from old to new. The new frame is not improved to his knowledge so it could possibly fail in the same manner but if it does so under warranty that the warranty is still good for the year.

So far so good. In the end Kioti took a gamble with the weld and it didn't work out. If the new loader goes on without any more tricks then Kioti will have demonstrated that they....

say it with me now....

Want to be the best.

Highbeam · Apr 4, 2006

"( Companies that want to be the best don't try to eek through the warranty period to stick customers. I am still confident that Kioti will do the right thing here. )
Finally someone responded the way I hoped when I posted the remarks that I did."

What the heck is this about? You trying to set me up?

KiotiJohn · Apr 4, 2006

( say it with me now....

Want to be the best. )
I have a feeling the new frame will be reinforced. This is good news, and I'm happy that you're getting what you should be getting. The welding wouldn't have been a bad idea if it had been done correctly, but it just wasn't.

John
Edit: You were posting this as I was posting mine.
No, I wasn't trying to set you up, I was trying to get someone to recognize that Kioti doesn't want problems like this to make them look bad. By saying what I did, it caused you to realize that they hadn't had every chance to make things right, and you felt they would do the right thing. That's what I was hoping someone would say. It could have been anyone. I'm glad it was you since the problem was yours.
J

Dargo · Apr 4, 2006

( Turns out that he too was embarassed by the repair quality though the weld repair was done under the direction of Kioti. )

Cool!!!!!

Highbeam · Apr 4, 2006

You don't have that much mind control.

I was on Kioti's site to find out how easy it was going to be to override my dealer when I read their schpiel about customer service. I quoted it and then gave a counterpoint. To bring it back to center I repeated my vote of confidence in the parent company. You could go along thinking you caused me to write that though. No sweat.

TomKioti · Apr 4, 2006

( ( say it with me now....

Want to be the best. )
I have a feeling the new frame will be reinforced. This is good news, and I'm happy that you're getting what you should be getting. The welding wouldn't have been a bad idea if it had been done correctly, but it just wasn't.

John
Edit: You were posting this as I was posting mine.
No, I wasn't trying to set you up, I was trying to get someone to recognize that Kioti doesn't want problems like this to make them look bad. By saying what I did, it caused you to realize that they hadn't had every chance to make things right, and you felt they would do the right thing. That's what I was hoping someone would say. It could have been anyone. I'm glad it was you since the problem was yours.
J )

Thank God it's over..... for now /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif See KL120 loader flexing thread.

John you have the patience of a Saint.