Interesting Clutch Problem

[JayDavis]

Ok if this isn't in the right forum which it may very well not be delete or move accordingly. I don't mean to cause problems.

We have a 1980s Hesston 90-90 with 2700 hours. We had just got it back from an uncle who had borrowed it for the past few weeks. We needed it back cause our list of stuff needed to be done was getting big. I helped dad hook up to the plow and he took off. An hour later he comes back from the field and pulls into the driveway with it kinda lurching. I get out there and he points to the clutch which is stuck to the floor. I ask him how he was driving, and he said watch and he put it in gear and grabbed the pto hand clutch and started letting it out. As it let out transmission clutch started letting out and the tractor started moving forward. He said he was plowing and the transmission started making a whining sound that stopped when he pulled the PTO clutch up...and in the process of troubleshooting he found pulling the PTO up also pulled the foot clutch down.

So here are the facts... This tractor has a foot clutch for the transmission, and a separate clutch for the PTO beside the seat on the right side. The foot clutch will work like normal if the PTO clutch is let out. If you pull the PTO clutch lever up to disengage the PTO, the transmission clutch disengages and goes to the floor and is held there by the lock on the PTO lever. This is not the normal behavior, otherwise engaging and disengaging the PTO on the move would become one heck of an interesting task. Also, the linkages for both are on opposite sides of the transmission so there is nothing external binding up.

Anyhow, I just thought I'd pick the brains of some of you knowledgeable tractor owners and see if this has happened to anyone before and what it might be. Since it is dark, we are leaving it for now in the front yard and will take a better look at it in the day. I am sure mother will be happy to see it parked there when she gets home... haha

Thanks for any info or opinions...

 

[JayDavis]

I got a chance to look at it some today. One interesting thing is if you engage the PTO, the shaft will start spinning even with the clutch fully disengaged and someone grabbing hold of it can't stop it or slow it so the PTO clutch now operates the transmission gear clutch and no longer appears to be disengaging from the engine regardless of clutch position. Will try to talk to a mechanic tomorrow.

Sems like no one else has any input so if I ever figure the problem out I'll be sure to post it on this thread for reference should anyone else should have this problem... Otherwise I'll let this thread sink to the bottom rather than take up space. Have a good workweek everyone.

 

[cp1969]

Well it stumped me but I don't even know what a Heston 90-90 is. So without some knowledge of the machine itself, I would imagine most people are in the same boat as I am. I was trying to remember the clutch arrangements on the Allis "D" series tractor as it sounds like they work similarly. IIRC, on the Allis you have to make use of the hand clutch if you want live PTO action but it has been so long I can't remember the mechanical details of the two clutches. Obviously the front (foot) clutch feeds into the hand clutch and the PTO is tapped off between the two. If the foot clutch won't disengage, it will produce the symptoms you describe...except for the collapsed clutch pedal.

 

[john_bud]

You probably have a bad clutch component that wore out, broke and needs to be replaced. Pressure plate is my guess. Could be some freak fracture of the throw out bearing, but only a split and inspection will tell for sure.

jb

 

[wushaw]

Clutch fork, pedal linkage, throwout bearing, pressure plate fingers...break one of these and your pedal goes to the floor without the normal resistance.

Splitting the tractor is probably gonna be your next step.

 

[N80]

But why is the PTO clutch lever engaging the transmission?

 

[JerryG]

Jay,
Before you break the tractor into, check under the dash. You could have a linkage, spring etc broken or off. I have found simple things like that to be the problem more than one.

 

[JayDavis]

Thanks for the ideas. We talked to a few mechanics that worked with these types of tractors... FiatAgri (btw). New Holland carries the parts now. The general consensus is it is the clutch that has gone out and that while the PTO system is an independent one, it at least shares part of the asembly with the PTO clutch. Most of the mechanics didn't even have to think about it before giving that answer. Some mechanics didn't even want to touch the project because the difficulty of finding parts for these tractors they have done in the past.

We did find a place in Sulphur Springs, TX about 45 minutes away that was willing to take on the project. The company I work for does a lot of business with them and they are just about the only place to find parts for this tractor we have found in the past. The mechanics quote was $2,200, but he said that if we did some of the work prior to bringing it up there, like removing the loader and it's sub frame, that would save labor hours and lower the price.

Included is a picture of it. This was last year when I was digging and clearing some land. It was my grandpa's tractor and since then, we've found the side and front covers and fixed them so they stay attached, fixed the broken hand and foot throttles and diff lock linkage, fixed the Air Conditioner, cleaned and degreased the engine compartment, fixed leaking cylinders, changed the filters, and the list goes on. It is an early 1980s model and has 2700 hours on it (original clutch) and has spent most of its life sitting unused in the weather. It is older than me (born in 84) and some of my fondest memories are me riding on my grandpa's lap as he operated the tractor, so it is more than a tool to me....though it is a necessity for caring for the 100 acres of his land and cattle he left behind when he passed away in 05.

 

[diyDave]

That sound heard was probably either the throw-out bearing going bad or the fingers on the pressure plate breaking or bending. If you remove the loader and subframe, you might find an access plate that will allow you to get a better look at the clutch. Also, as one of the others said, check out springs, linkages too. It is sometimes amazing the amount of trouble a little spring or clip can cause you!

 

[john_bud]

2200 isn't a bad price. Still, it's 1500-1800 in labor. Being a cheap person, I can't see paying to have that done!

jb

 

[JayDavis]

The mechanic my father talked to said it was the fingers on the pressure plate rubbing making the sound. He also mentioned not running it anymore than necessary to take stuff off, which makes sense (obviously).

Today, we pulled the loader off. The last time it was removed was when I was less than 5 (almost 20 years ago). It took a little effort to get the pins pulled and then to get the loader to lift off both attachment points. Now we are trying to figure out the best way to take the loaders frame off the tractor.

Before taking the loader off, we looked at the linkages. The foot clutch linkages is all mechanical and is on the left side of the transmission. The PTO clutch handle is on the right and beside the seat. It operates a cable that terminates into a lever on the right side of the transmission. The linkages external to the transmission are far apart and not interfering with each other.

My uncle borrowed it previous on two occasions for weeks at a time for loader work in the past few months. The first time, he blew out the front windshield, and the second time the high pressure line exiting the hydraulic pump blew off and dumped all the hydraulic fluid on the ground. He fixed both of these problems and we had just gotten it back from him from the last borrowing and had been running it less than an hour before my father noticed the sounds and discovered the PTO clutch no longer worked and instead was actuating the foot clutch. Either my uncle has really bad luck or something is going on.

To John, I agree with you, me being a cheap person as well, I have no wish to pay over 2,000 to fix this, but the only facilities we have to work with is the great outdoors and sugar sand as the "floor" I know me and my father could probably get it done, splitting and putting it back together would be the hardest part. Sending it off isn't written in stone yet but weighing work schedules, parts availability, tractor size, and work area and tools on hand it may be better in the long run to send it off especially when the mechanic is at the dealership that is just about the only place to get parts for it anyhow and is knowledgeable in the inner workings of this model/brand.

One thing I know is that while it is split I want them to look at everything that might need replacing. I'd rather pay a bit more now than have to split it again in the foreseeable future.

Whew, this post has been long winded. Hope everyone is having a good weekend.

 

[clius]

Ok if this isn't in the right forum which it may very well not be delete or move accordingly. I don't mean to cause problems.

We have a 1980s Hesston 90-90 with 2700 hours. We had just got it back from an uncle who had borrowed it for the past few weeks. We needed it back cause our list of stuff needed to be done was getting big. I helped dad hook up to the plow and he took off. An hour later he comes back from the field and pulls into the driveway with it kinda lurching. I get out there and he points to the clutch which is stuck to the floor. I ask him how he was driving, and he said watch and he put it in gear and grabbed the pto hand clutch and started letting it out. As it let out transmission clutch started letting out and the tractor started moving forward. He said he was plowing and the transmission started making a whining sound that stopped when he pulled the PTO clutch up...and in the process of troubleshooting he found pulling the PTO up also pulled the foot clutch down.

So here are the facts... This tractor has a foot clutch for the transmission, and a separate clutch for the PTO beside the seat on the right side. The foot clutch will work like normal if the PTO clutch is let out. If you pull the PTO clutch lever up to disengage the PTO, the transmission clutch disengages and goes to the floor and is held there by the lock on the PTO lever. This is not the normal behavior, otherwise engaging and disengaging the PTO on the move would become one heck of an interesting task. Also, the linkages for both are on opposite sides of the transmission so there is nothing external binding up.

Anyhow, I just thought I'd pick the brains of some of you knowledgeable tractor owners and see if this has happened to anyone before and what it might be. Since it is dark, we are leaving it for now in the front yard and will take a better look at it in the day. I am sure mother will be happy to see it parked there when she gets home... haha

Thanks for any info or opinions...

The PTO shaft runs from clutch to rear of tractor thru the transmission. If you don't keep your pto engaged even when you don't use it the fluid will clog up between the 2 shafts. My 80-90 was like that when I bought it because it was a tiger special with a side mounted bush hog The pto was not used for over 20 years and the pto shaft was rotating the transmission some times. Made it hairy to operate like bushing with a mower on the back. Took side mounted bush cutter off. Try running pto shaft more if shafts aren't binding already.

 

[dougtrr2]

I got a chance to look at it some today. One interesting thing is if you engage the PTO, the shaft will start spinning even with the clutch fully disengaged and someone grabbing hold of it can't stop it or slow it so the PTO clutch now operates the transmission gear clutch and no longer appears to be disengaging from the engine regardless of clutch position. Will try to talk to a mechanic tomorrow.

I sure hope I am misreading that statement. That is an accident waiting to happen.

Doug in SW IA

 

[denchen]

I don't know your tractor, but if it helps, my dad had a couple of tractors `David Browns`, that had a standard foot clutch and a hand clutch along side of the drivers seat. The hand clutch lever did exactly the same as the foot clutch, but if you was not in gear, and wanted to stop something driven from the rear, you pulled the hand clutch lever instead of getting on the tractor. Today I guess the Health and Safety guys would have kittens if you used it today, but maybe your tractor has this system.

 

[07wingnut]

You folks do realize you are replying to a 14 year old thread?

 

[newbury]

Not quite old enough to date
OP was last on in 2009.

 

[dougtrr2]

I missed that also. But, it seems like there has been a lot more instances of old threads coming back to life than there used to be. Any idea why?

Doug in SW IA

 

[IndyJay]

I missed that also. But, it seems like there has been a lot more instances of old threads coming back to life than there used to be. Any idea why?

Doug in SW IA

One reason may be someone doing a search for a topic, landing on a thread and adding comment without looking at the date or reading earlier posts. Some topics lend themselves better to this than others. Several interesting threads on TBN go back several years with hundreds of posts. I like it when someone closes an open question, even on an old thread, if it may help someone later trying to solve an issue. Conversely, it seems like a lot of people post questions without looking to see if there is already a related thread. I keep seeing the same question asked that already have a couple of active threads going.