Inexpensive Welding Solution?????

[gemini5362]

Egon,,yeah,,guess some of those little things they sell might not make enough heat to melt wire/rod and base metal properly,,,but any welder that will produce enough amps to properly burn what ever wire or rod your using,[size I mean],you should be able to multipass weld with,its just that if its thick,,you may end up making many passes and many starts and stops and that ain't real good either,[not to mention it might take you forever].
Just saying that you don't go about thinking you have to weld something in just one pass,[unless you are factory produceing something,maybe a small fillit weld],,for alot of stuff,yeah,one pass might get it,,but for something thick,,or beveled,,you need to make more than one pass,,take a crack for example in 1/4-3/8 inch steel,,,if you can just weld it from one side,,you bevel it out,,make a root,,clean/grind,fill maybe one pass,clean/grind,and cap.Thats how you repair a crack,,even when welding thinner stuff,,I alllways,[generally] make a root,and at least one cover over it,,just works better,,not talking sheet metal here,,,course you gotta clean,brush,you gotta grind out high spots,so you will have a even/clean surface to weld over.
You are really limiting yourself if you think you got to weld every thing in one pass,,on something thinner,you might really be able to make a better looking weld,if you run a smaller first pass and than a cap over it,,and on something thicker you won't be trying to burn so hot that you are burning holes and carry so much metal that you can't weld out of flat postion cause you think you got to fill it in one pass,,,thingy

I would not argue with someone that knows what they are doing and obviously you do. From what I know of the welding process what you descrive is exactly right. I am strictly an amateur welder. I just make small projects and do some repairs on my trailer. The problem with the process you describe is that it takes a lot of time. I usually do not have the time to do that good a job on my welds. I know you think one pass is not the way to go. I see people weld one pass all the time. I would never try to have anything I welded inspected but I have never had anything that I welded break either. I never weld anything thicker than 3/8 inch If It is thicker than that I would probably take it to a welding shop and have someone do it. You might be able to take one of the small mig welders and bevel the metal then fill with multiple passes. I am suprised that something that runs off of 110 volts and rated to weld 1/4 inch or smaller would be able to weld 3 inch thick plate. I like having a machine that is rated to weld the thickness of metal I am working with I can make one pass and get on with the other things I have to do. Once again I am strictly and amatuer welder and do not weld anything for anyone other than myself.

 

[California]

Since all the experts seem to be assembled here...

What's the shelf life for 6011 rod? I got some that has to be years old. The coating is solid and it seems to work well. Is there a problem with using it?

 

[thingy]

A long time,,as long as they are welding alright,than they are alright,,,on the other hand a 7018 rod after its container is opened needs to be stored in an oven or at least something with a little heat to keep out moisture,,,you don't put a 6011 or 6010 in an oven,coating will get to dry and fall off.
No,gemini,,,did't say you need to weld multiple passes,just saying many times you have to,and many times you want to,and once you get it that you can anytime you want,,you look at welding in a whole new light,,,more passes is not always better,some times it is a must,,,take butt welding a piece of pipe together for example,,if you just butt it up and weld one pass around it,,no way are you getting a good weld on that joint,,,you gotta bevel it,,put a gap in it,,run a root bead in it,,brush/grind,,than fill and or cap,,its just the way things are done.And again,,you are really limiting yourself if you got in your head that you gotta make every weld in one pass.
But for what you are probably doing,,one pass probably works,,you may never have to get better than you are now,,,just trying to teach you something is all.
Yeah,agree on those little machines,,,buying a welding machine is not like buying a cresent wrench,,a cheap cresent wrench will work,,and at least for a while do the job,,a cheap little welder with barely enough power and duty cycle to burn .030 wire for 5 seconds,,will not do the job,and is a waste of money,,,but any welder that will burn .035 wire or 1/8 rod for a normal time,say 60 percent[or even maybe 40 percent] at 120 amps,,,is more than capable to multiple pass with,,but you got to know what your doing at least a little,,,you got to know how to clean and grind,,how to prepare bevel,,the different parts of a weld[root,fill cap],,where to place next pass,,what kind of next pass,,[multiple stringers or a weave].Its not really that you can't weld 3 inch thick steel with 120 machine,,its a question of do I know how and man this is going to take a long time,,alot of things involved,,,but we ain't talking welding 3 inch thick steel with 120 amps,,we are talking of that silly thing some welding supply guy started about this mig machine can weld 1/4 or 3/8 inch in one pass,,,yeah,,he ain't lying,[probably],,,but its stupid from a welders point of view,,,,takes out many factors,,thickness of what your welding,what size wire/rod you using,,,what postion your welding,what direction your going,,what you are welding,,,,now if you had a fab shop and you got this contract to weld 10 zillion 1/4 inch fillit welds,flat,,,than it would make a little sense,,to maybe look at it this way,,,other than that,,,just a way of welding suppliers to sell their equpement to people who know nothing about welding,,,which is why,,I'm trying to help out a little here,,,take it or leave it,,,thingy

 

[Knotbored]

This has been the most entertaining thread to read for a non-welder like myself. Remember it was started to get opinions on a $50 map-gas sale unit.

Reminds me that many-MANY years ago I got a solidox tool (propane bottle with solid oxy capsules that would burn for about 30 seconds each-instructions said it would "weld up to 1/4" plate" but it always took me 30 seconds just to melt a hunk of brazing rod LOL.

 

[patrick_g]

HomeBrew2, Clearly you are fortunate to have a situation where blowing on the outside of the box cools the inside, at least enough to help keep it from shutdown. I don't argue with reality. I'm glad it works for you in those situations but I'd be careful extrapolating those results.

In general, blowing a little air inside an electronic enclosure is more effective than blowing a lot of air on the outside of the box.

I recall a situation where a small metal building had a generator in it and a bunch of batteries and battery chargers to act as a huge UPS so commercial power or no, a computer complex would ALWAYS have uninterrupted power. Small fans added to the cabinets to aid the internal fans ducted to the outside would have done a bang up cooling job but instead they had put louvered vents in the bld and ran a 12.5 KW air cooled Onan inside the bld. Lots of heating problems. Proposed solution: Huge fan to blow outside air into bld. Needed solution: itsy bitsy muffin fans and ducts to outside.

It is always better to cool the hot parts directly.

I have been intending to try a muffin fan on the back of my Lincoln lunchbox but haven't been annoyed with thermal shutdown enough to drive me to it.


Different topic: Usually you can turn a powerful welder down to do light jobs but you can't turn a weak welder up to do big jobs. Ordinarily welding machines (other than engine driven) just last and last and last so you get plenty of time to amortize your investment. You never hear folks complain about having too much welding capability but you do hear lots of complaints about not having enough power.

Over the decades I have seen way too many examples of folks trying to make do with a too small welder and regretting it. It is possible to dig a pond with a spoon but it will take a long time and not be fun. Too small of a welder can be like that.

Pat

 

[river rat]

Good post, Patrick G .... glad somebody finally got around to saying it exactly like it is! $50 for the little rig that started this thread vs $50 to $100 for a used old lincoln capable of doing ten times as much .... no kinda choice there!
I don't remember ever learning anything new that didn't quickly take me to the next level, beyond everything I thought I'd need - ALWAYS buy more than you think you'll need. Chances are it still won't be enough for long! LOL

 

[California]

And so we come full circle, what he can get for $50. Here's what I got for $50, with cables and mobile cart. I've read it was made by Century in the 60's.

http://s93445617.onlinehome.us/pix/ym240/arcwelder2989r.jpg

I still think a big old cheap welder is the way to start, at least for hobby use. Learn to use it, then decide if you need more specialized gear after you have the experience to make an intelligent choice.

Thingy, thanks for the advice on old rod.

Everybody, thanks, I'm learning a lot here!

 

[Sully2]

I HATE multi-pass welds...and all of mine look like HE**! Luckily for the stuff I play around with...I dont need to do any of that...BUT...should I find myself in the future "needing" to work on material thick enough where Id "HAVE TO" do it...I'll buy a welder ( stick or mig) capable of doing 3/8" in one single pass.

Grinding weld beads to prep for the next round flat sucks......Id much rather be laying down more material.

 

[patrick_g]

I don't remember ever learning anything new that didn't quickly take me to the next level, beyond everything I thought I'd need - ALWAYS buy more than you think you'll need. Chances are it still won't be enough for long! LOL

My philosophy too, I thought but... I bought a plasma cutter that didn't do enough to suit me by a goodly margin. I paid 6% restocking fee and upgraded to larger unit. Now I LOVE IT. No hassle with bottles and much much easier to do a decent job compared to O-A cutting torch. But what about preheating for arc welding you may ask... I have a carbon arc torch for my Lincoln AC-DC Tombstone for pure non-contact heat. You can use a carbon electrode like a welding rod for heating too. The carbon arc torch will let you hard solder and braze too.

I still have a small set of bottles like you see reefer mechs carrying. I have the plastic carrier mounted to an old pack frame so I can go anywhere with the torch but don't use it often.

I confess that I paid retail for my Tombstone but that was nearly 20 years ago and it has never done anything but work perfectly. If you don't hot switch them it is hard to hurt them. I'm glad I went AC/DC because there are things that DC just does better.

Pat

 

[gemini5362]

A long time,,as long as they are welding alright,than they are alright,,,on the other hand a 7018 rod after its container is opened needs to be stored in an oven or at least something with a little heat to keep out moisture,,,you don't put a 6011 or 6010 in an oven,coating will get to dry and fall off.
No,gemini,,,did't say you need to weld multiple passes,just saying many times you have to,and many times you want to,and once you get it that you can anytime you want,,you look at welding in a whole new light,,,more passes is not always better,some times it is a must,,,take butt welding a piece of pipe together for example,,if you just butt it up and weld one pass around it,,no way are you getting a good weld on that joint,,,you gotta bevel it,,put a gap in it,,run a root bead in it,,brush/grind,,than fill and or cap,,its just the way things are done.And again,,you are really limiting yourself if you got in your head that you gotta make every weld in one pass.
But for what you are probably doing,,one pass probably works,,you may never have to get better than you are now,,,just trying to teach you something is all.
Yeah,agree on those little machines,,,buying a welding machine is not like buying a cresent wrench,,a cheap cresent wrench will work,,and at least for a while do the job,,a cheap little welder with barely enough power and duty cycle to burn .030 wire for 5 seconds,,will not do the job,and is a waste of money,,,but any welder that will burn .035 wire or 1/8 rod for a normal time,say 60 percent[or even maybe 40 percent] at 120 amps,,,is more than capable to multiple pass with,,but you got to know what your doing at least a little,,,you got to know how to clean and grind,,how to prepare bevel,,the different parts of a weld[root,fill cap],,where to place next pass,,what kind of next pass,,[multiple stringers or a weave].Its not really that you can't weld 3 inch thick steel with 120 machine,,its a question of do I know how and man this is going to take a long time,,alot of things involved,,,but we ain't talking welding 3 inch thick steel with 120 amps,,we are talking of that silly thing some welding supply guy started about this mig machine can weld 1/4 or 3/8 inch in one pass,,,yeah,,he ain't lying,[probably],,,but its stupid from a welders point of view,,,,takes out many factors,,thickness of what your welding,what size wire/rod you using,,,what postion your welding,what direction your going,,what you are welding,,,,now if you had a fab shop and you got this contract to weld 10 zillion 1/4 inch fillit welds,flat,,,than it would make a little sense,,to maybe look at it this way,,,other than that,,,just a way of welding suppliers to sell their equpement to people who know nothing about welding,,,which is why,,I'm trying to help out a little here,,,take it or leave it,,,thingy

Thingy although I am probably being obstreperous I do read what you say and take note of your advice. If I get to a point where I have to weld something different or if I ever get my life where I dont have to many irons in the fire I fully intend to take advantage of your advice.

 

[thingy]

Obser what? Ain't even going to look it up.I wasn't trying to be obser either,[I don't think],just telling you how a welder goes about welding,,not talking rod burner here. Honestly,how many passes never really enters my mind much,[when I was welding for a living],and now that I'm doing inspection work,most times it never does either. You go at it till its welded,,,now maybe if I was welding 1/4 fillits or something,I mighta thought about it,cause you should be able to do it in one pass,,something like,well don't want to use 1/8 here maybe,wanta go to 5/32,maybe,,,,but when welding something thicker,,or anything with a bevel,,never really gave it much though,,till after I welded one,,,than I would know,,bigger filler requires more amps,puts down more metal,,and visa versa,,,,travel speed,,,weave or stringer,what your welding,,what postion,up or down,,can't carry much metal over head,can carry more flat,,etc,etc,,,thats why I say anybody who has got it in his head that anything he welds he's gotta do in one pass is limiting himself,,,but I know,many are beginners,and most ever thing they weld will be flat and 1/4 or so, and they don't have to worry much about weld quality,just as long as it serves the purpose,,,nothing wrong with that,,,just pointing out to these beginners that maybe they don't need to go spend money to buy a bigger machine,maybe they do,but maybe what they got will serve the purpose,if they just knew a few little things,,,thingy

 

[kwolfe]

Thanks everyone for your advice. I have looking for something used and local but have not found anything yet. I am possibly thinking about this unit from HF for $100. I don't think I will ever be welding anything as thick as 1/2". Mostly 1/4 inch with the occassional/rare 3/8". Drilling lots of holes and bolting things together is getting really old. Plus it limits how I can configure things.

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

 

[patrick_g]

Likely unpopular comment follows:

You will most likely never reach your full potential as a welder by a large margin due to equipment limitations (cheapie HF.)

A good welder can make inferior equipment perform in many instances but a beginner has enough trouble doing a decent job with good equipment to hamstring himself with inferior equipment.

This is not what most beginners want to hear but will later with experience mostly admit it to be the case.

To save time you can just burn a hundred dollar bill and then go buy a decent welder, hopefully used. Same end result but saves time vs the HF first approach.

Pat

 

[Sully2]

Thanks everyone for your advice. I have looking for something used and local but have not found anything yet. I am possibly thinking about this unit from HF for $100. I don't think I will ever be welding anything as thick as 1/2". Mostly 1/4 inch with the occassional/rare 3/8". Drilling lots of holes and bolting things together is getting really old. Plus it limits how I can configure things.

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

NO WAY! Not when I can get a Hobart 220V...235 amp max Stickmate from TSC for $232 buckos!

 

[Sully2]

To save time you can just burn a hundred dollar bill and then go buy a decent welder, hopefully used. Same end result but saves time vs the HF first approach.

Pat

That "pollutes"... He can send me the $100 bill and I'll even pay the postage....

 

[gemini5362]

Obstreperous 1. noisily and stubbornly defiant;

When I first started dating my wife she called me that.

 

[kwolfe]

NO WAY! Not when I can get a Hobart 220V...235 amp max Stickmate from TSC for $232 buckos!

I would love nothing more than to buy a really nice welder and get really good at welding. Unfortunately, with young kids and a fairly tight budget, I need to get what will do. $100 is about my budget. I don't see the need to do a lot of welding. I simply want something that will enable me to do the occassional project at home (99% of the time will be 1/4" stuff max).

I would love to meet my full potential someday, but that is sometime from now. For now, I want something that will do the job. I have a grinder, so cleaning up the ugly welds after the fact is noa problem.

 

[HomeBrew2]

Kwolfe, I agree with Patrick_g's last remarks, completely. In YOUR situation, I still recommend getting a quality USED buzz box, for the same $100 (as I mentioned in post #11).
(I have a real welder too and have been using it for decades.)

 

[MJPetersen]

Kwolfe,
What you got is good advice. Check pawn shops and second hand shops. You may find what you need. The better machine is not only better because of the amperage and in the size of material it will handle, but also in the stability of the arc and the ease of striking an arc and in a longer Duty cycle. That alone will save you the time that is so precious.
Mike

 

[thingy]

Genimi,,well,I got some of that in me than,,Kwolfe,,northern cataloges got a hobart stick welder,just ac,205 amp,for 250 dollars,,but they also got one a hobart ac/dc 235 amp,for 400 dollars,,,thats the one you oughta get,,lincoln may have one even cheaper,ac/dc,stick welders,,its 4 times more than you wanta spend but it would be all the welder you would probably ever need,says free shipping too,they might even let you make payments? but like the guys are saying,bet you could find a used one,ac/dc,over 200 amp one for not much more than 100 dollars,,,ad pad or something like that always have something in them it seems,,,I would get a stick,ac/dc,with around 200 amps,lincoln,hobart or miller,,,you gotta have or make you a place to plug one in though if you ain't got one,,,220/230,ain't an electrician,but it ain't hard to rig up the wire and outside plug in,if you got a spot on your breaker panel,you could probably run another wire,[of correct size],and connect it where your dryer connects to your breaker,and just not use dryer when you are using welder,run it outside and connect it to a plug in,maybe in a covered spot where you can weld,like I said ain't an electrician,,but believe you won't be happy for long with what you plan on getting,,,but on other hand,know how the money thing goes,if you ain't got it,you ain't got it,thats why I got a chinese tractor!!but,it works! thingy