Inexpensive Welding Solution?????

[AlanB]

Back to the OP, I do not want to come across as harshly as some I am reading here.

Certainly you can learn a ton on your own, the $100 Tombstones are out there, not everyday, but I would say in two or three months of watching, you will stumble into one. The ones I find, the folks are often upgrading (thats why I sold mine)

I guess I would suggest maybe a slightly different approach on the learning though. If kids etc. have time constraints, do you have any friends that weld? Could they come over and give some pointers along the way? This is one of those skills that just gets learned so much easier if someone is there watching and say's NO, do it like "THIS". But again, I would not quit because nobody was handy, I would just pick at it till you got it.

I guess I got to thinking on this thread last night. I got my Backhoe VERY stuck last night (Al B's house project thread) and I bet had there been an experienced operator just outside watching, they could have said, hey you big dummy, do this and you can get yourself out..... I have read a lot, have a fair amount of experience in this type of thing etc. but this is one where a very experienced hoe operator would have been very nice.

And then the corrollary to your story, I am sure I will get out, I have a technique in mind and am reasonably certain it will work. And I will have learned a lesson, or maybe "how to do it" BUT, I will probably not have learned the best or the correct way that someone with more experience could have sat in the seat and shown me, or instructed me from the side.

Oh, and Sully, I guess we just disagree about the NO WELDER for $100... Lincoln Tombstone AC or similar, will do the tractor implement's etc for home use all day long for years to come.

Little bit of 1/8" 6011 and there is a lot of work that can be accomplished.

 

[patrick_g]

if you think your going to LEARN welding from reading..your flat wrong! Its the HOURS of "doing it" and seeing all your screw-ups and having someone that DOES KNOW how to weld properly explaining to you what you didnt do righ.

Your approach works.

There are good welding books, with pictures, that go a long way toward substituting for the knowledgeable coach. There is much more thinking involved in welding than a lot of uninitiated folks believe. It isn't just hand eye coordination and a rigid rule or two of what to do when. A mentor, coach, or teacher and plenty of practice with critiques is superior to self practice and books but you can learn on your own IF you are willing to do what is required and good books are available and do help.

People do upgrade and sell their old but still functional buzz boxes. There are lots of good used welders on the market. There is a significant turnover in used welders as many people who buy a welder do not make the commitment required to be able to do a decent weld, turn sour on welding when they find it is NOT TRIVIAL, and resell their welder.

Final comment: If there are small children involved in a situation where welding is contemplated then serious safety considerations are in order. Kids have a way of being curious about stuff, especially new stuff, and new stuff that makes sparks is totally mesmerizing. You can cause serious damage to a child who looks at an arc with no protection. A kid will pick up a bright piece of metal (bright because it is red hot or hotter.) So if there is no one else to supervise the kids... Arc damage is serious business. So is melting the flesh off of young fingers if they try to pick up hot stuff.

With the "frying bacon" sound in your ears and a welding shield with its dark glass over your head you will neither hear nor see a child coming into the danger zone. Likewise for pets and stock. Animals will watch an arc and you can blind them.

Pat

 

[Sully2]

Oh, and Sully, I guess we just disagree about the NO WELDER for $100... Lincoln Tombstone AC or similar, will do the tractor implement's etc for home use all day long for years to come.

Little bit of 1/8" 6011 and there is a lot of work that can be accomplished.

I agree totally that a Tombstone for any price will do what he wants. Ive SEEN "$100" stick welders for sale before...*thumbs down*!!! IMO They would have made better "boat anchors". "Cosmetically" shot to the point you couldnt even read the "power scale" on them. For those..I have to say "no thanks".

 

[river rat]

I still say - I'll take a 225a tombstone and weld 1/2" stuff all day long, and hang my life on it - done it for too many years. And now that MIG welders are so popular, those buzz boxes are worth less than they used to be, in spite of the fact that they'll do a heckuva lot of dependable work.
And as far as the kids go .... I guess maybe I got here by a very different route than anybody else; when I was about 5 years old, my stepdad (a lifelong mechanic) was welding something under a car one day when Mom took me by for a visit. A piece of steel fell to the ground, and looked interesting, so I picked it up. Didn't take me long to look it over, and I still carry the scar of that, 50-odd years later. But it interested me, and I was determined to build things out of steel, too. When I got old enough to get a job and buy a welder, that's what I did. My son and I have had a blast building all kinds of things since. We've built vehicles from scratch that we drove on the highway - still pull our trailers every day, and use implements on the tractor that I wouldn't trade for any "storebuilt". Still say, go for it!
As far as knowledgeable friends go, ALWAYS pick their brains .... you never know what little nuggets of knowledge you'll come away with!

 

[kwolfe]

All,
Thanks for your good advice. My search continues for a used buzz box. Hopefully I will find one sooner or later.

Sully,
I agree with you to a point. I am a strong believer in gathering all the knowledge you can before attempting most anything. However, I do realize that the only way really learn how to do most things is by doing them. I did find a guy at work who is willing to show me the basics and let me tinker a bit. Also, regarding the "who is watching you kids" questions. I try to get most of my tractoring done before the kids wake up in the monring (yes, many times it is still dark but that is why I got lights on the ROPS), or while they are napping in the afternoon.

Patrick,
Safety is very important to me, especially when it comes to my boys. I usually do all of my tinkering at night when they are asleep and the wife is watching TV. I do not drill, grind, or use a hammer anywhere near them. One day they will egt to use Dad's tools, but we are years away from begining that training excercise. I don't have any pets right now, but will keep the arc watching thing in mind. That's really good advice. I may get a dog in a few years.

Alan and rat,
Thanks for the optimism. I will keep my fingers crossed for a good deal.

Hopefully, I will be posting pictures of my first ugly welds.

 

[thingy]

True story about arc burns. My former boss got the job when he was just starting out,this was in the 50's,,of putting new gutters and down spouts on a state mental hospital,,not for sure all the details of how he made them,etc,,but the down spouts where made of steel pipe that he butt welded together and made branch connections on down the side of this 5-6 story building.
Windows every where,,he said he looked up once when he first started and there musta been a hundred faces in the windows watching him,,he said he quit,,and told the staff,,but it did little good,he said the rest of the day,whenever he raised his hood there where always many eyes on him,,,he said that night people who worked there told him it was the craziest night ever,,people running around screaming,[guess a lot more than normal],,cause many got their eyes burnt.
He said the next day,,they had sheets up over the windows. thingy

 

[chabat124]

I have one of those. I am not happy with it.

I have a Lincoln Buzz Box AC/DC Arc Welder. Used the Heck out of it. Great machine for a hobbyist like me. I am super satisfied with it.

 

[patrick_g]

chabat124, I too have the AC/DC Lincoln Tombstone and it just works , ignores abuse and NEVER has had any problem in over 15 years.

It is not just a hobbyist welder. You'd be surprised how many of these have been used in professional shops, especially before all the reasonably priced wire feed boxes became available.

One of the many reasons I like my Lincoln Weld Pak 100 is that my portable generator would run it and would not run the tombstone very well.

Last week at Lowe's I bought a customer returned generator after it got back from the repair center. It has a 15 HP engine with electric and rope pull start and is rated for continuous 8000 Watts and has 13500 Watt surge capacity. I finally wired a cord with a twist lock plug for it (other end fits the Tombstone.) Welded about 5 hrs with it on a friends new pipe coral in process. The used generator and my tombstone buzz box out performed the $50 a day rented welder my friend was using. There were a lot of bad fitting joints tacked and awaiting finish welding. No way to fix them except find a setting that would allow welding the big gaps closed without blowing lots of holes in the thin rusty used pipe. I experimented a bit and ended up using DC minus at 90 amps. If you turn the rental welder (DC only) down below about 120 amps it was devilishly difficult to start the ark, sticking was very bad with it.

Don't know how long the used genny will work but so far so good and I paid $400 for it. New off the shelf at Lowe's they are $1300. I have more versatility and better welding capabilitys than the rental machine (it was 13 hp and did fine at higher settings but at $50/day that is 8 days to equal the cost of the used genny to power the good ole trusty tombstone.

Made my day... now I can weld heavier than the little MIG could ever do and can do it portably.

Pat

 

[thingy]

Pat,alright,,now don't take this wrong,,but,,if you was using a 3/16th rod it woulda been hard to start at 150 amps,,see,it depends on rod size how much amps you use,,3/32 rod uses 90-100 amps or so,,thats what you needed,,the lower the amps the harder it is to weld with generally speaking,,than on the other hand to much and you burn a hole,,thin stuff you need a small rod so's you can run less amps,,,also they make and sell welder generaters,I got one,,the littler ones just put out ac,,and start at maybe 1,000 dollars,and may have 3-4,000 watts ac output,,,more expensive ones may put out 250-300 amps dc,10,000 watts ac output and cost 4-5,000 dollars,[or more],,and they got several inbetween,,you can buy a good welder generator for no more than a good generator and a good buzz box,[maybe less],,thingy

 

[gemini5362]

Thingy I apologize in advance. I just can not resist. My mig will weld thin metal very easily. Just turn down the amps and start welding

 

[thingy]

GEMINI,now you're getting it,,them migs are perfect for sheet metal,and no need to multipass! But you did know they had amp controls on them stick welders,its just when you turn it down you might have to go to a smaller rod to get it to burn right. Rods have all got a range where your average person can operate them,,you can burn hotter than that range or colder to a point if you know how,but if you wanta go much hotter [say to lay down more metal] or much colder,[say on something thin] ,than you need to go with a bigger or smaller rod. It ain't really rocket science,but,,,,,,,thingy

 

[bialecki]

Go to the following site for some professional advice on Arc, MIG, Tig: Miller - Stick Welding Tips

I bought a used Millermatic 130 wire feed unit a pawn shop for $160, easy to use and a much better looking weld than a arc welder, even when operating in the DC mode, based on my amateur welding abilities. The MIG has a very easy learning curve.

 

[thingy]

You mean you got a mig that has an ac mode? or do you mean a stick welder operated in the dc mode?,,,,thingy

 

[AlanB]

Gem, is this where I tell you that you cannot turn down the Amps on a Mig? You vary the amount of amperage by the amount of stickout that you are running.

Just poking fun

 

[HomeBrew2]

Gem, is this where I tell you that you cannot turn down the Amps on a Mig? You vary the amount of amperage by the amount of stickout that you are running. ...

... and vary the amount of destructive heat by how fast you are (?)

 

[thingy]

Alan yeah,thats pretty quick,,it is confusing though,,constant voltage verses constant current thing always did make me stop and think some,and than generally some more,,,thingy

 

[patrick_g]

Pat,alright,,now don't take this wrong,,but,,if you was using a 3/16th rod it woulda been hard to start at 150 amps,,see,it depends on rod size how much amps you use,,3/32 rod uses 90-100 amps or so,,thats what you needed,,the lower the amps the harder it is to weld with generally speaking,,than on the other hand to much and you burn a hole,,thin stuff you need a small rod so's you can run less amps,,,also they make and sell welder generaters,I got one,,the littler ones just put out ac,,and start at maybe 1,000 dollars,and may have 3-4,000 watts ac output,,,more expensive ones may put out 250-300 amps dc,10,000 watts ac output and cost 4-5,000 dollars,[or more],,and they got several inbetween,,you can buy a good welder generator for no more than a good generator and a good buzz box,[maybe less],,thingy

The rental welder would make maybe 170 or less tops. IT seemed to have only DC output. Only two terminals and they were labeled + and - so I tried both polarities. There is a "stiffness" factor in welding power supplies. A stiffer supply will start a rod easier as the voltage doesn't sag so easily and you can get the arc started easier.

Part of the job was not only structural but cosmetic, filling huge ugly gaps (they "saved" time by not cutting saddles.) They only had one box of rod, 1/8 inch 6011. Some of the pipe was nearly rusted through and nearly impossible to patch with 1/8 (I couldn't do it in a couple instances.)

I found that my Lincoln tombstone would weld at lower current than the rental. At lower current (below a setting of 120 amps but who knows what current was delivered) it was nearly impossible to start an arc on the rental. With a little delicacy I used 90 ams setting with DC - on the tombstone and built up the edges of the gaps till I could close them.

My experience (limited) is that combo welder generators in the smaller sizes are optimized for welding and are so so as generators, surely good to run a grinder and lights but not first choice for back up power. I already owned the Lincoln tombstone AC/DC buzz box and didn't need another welder of similar capability. I got the 8000 Watt continuous/13500 Watt surge genny for $400. This is an indisputable GOOD DEAL.

Still, if I were having to pay retail for the generator, I think I would have opted for a generator not a combo unit. I was shopping for a larger generator (I have Coleman 5000 continuous pull start) and was looking at some import 1800 RPM diesel units but a gasser with electric start for $400 turned my head.

Oh, did you upset me? Heavens no! We are darned close to being in perfect agreement and I don't get upset even if someone disagrees with me, especially if they have a valid point. I like to discuss, debate, and analyze with folks who can give valid reasons for their positions and aren't asking me to just accept their point of view without analysis.

There are lots of right ways to do some things. It depends on lots of circumstances and background info which is often not revealed. In the instance I related I think I did the right thing. That in no way implies that I think a combo generator welder is never the right choice.

Pat

 

[rickster]

My first welder which was a used welder was a miller 225 ac buzz box
for $150 with a few extras. Did many projects with it. I bought a victor
torch set. The torch set has been the best tool for getting me out of jams.
A couple years ago a friend had a 120 volt miller cricket mig welder that he sold
me for $50. I'm no pro welder but out of all the classes in high school that I
took the metals class has been the most useful

 

[patrick_g]

Rick, I was never better than mediocre with a torch but after getting a decent plasma cutter I am doing pretty good. I especially like the part where you make light contact with the work piece and don't have to maintain a spacing. I like to make templates and such and just drag the torch around and shazam a decent cutting job. The down side is that yo have to have sufficient compressed air, not just electricity. Now that I have a 8000 Watt continuous/13500 Watt surge genny I can go portable with the plasma and it buddy the compressor.

Pat

 

[thingy]

Pat,good than. They make them welder/gens in all shapes and sizes. The one I got now I chose for its size and power,,its small enough for me to put it back of truck by using a ramp and backing up next to a hill,wheeling it on its wheel kit,,,and unload the same,[it weighs a little over 300 lbs],,but big enough to run a 1/8 rod all day if you want,and its got 5,500 continues ac aux power,enough for me to use to power items in my house if electric goes off,,will not power whole house,but will power furnace and water pump for well tv and a few lights. Its a miller bluestar 185,,battery start,dc,,its got about a 75 percent duty cycle at 120 amps,,tank holds 5 gal gas,,its got 4 120 volt plug ins and one 240 volt plug in. Cost about 2,300.
You can buy a bigger one of course,for not much more money,but they are to heavy to easily load and unload and move about,,gotta about leave them on a truck or trailer,or setting someplace.
You can buy littler ones but most of them are ac only,,didn't get it for price,got it cause it would serve my needs as described.
So, they was making fence out of pipe with out mooning out the ends,,well I woulda let them weld it than,,thats not cosmetic either,,if you are building something and you don't cut it to fit,you can't just weld what does fit and not the rest and say we be done,good job.
Yeah hard to burn a 1/8 rod down around 90 amps,,but if joints woulda fit better you coulda turned machine up a little,maybe.
The old saying is good fitters make good welders,,you can't weld air. thingy