Snow Equipment Owning/Operating Indulge My Business Idea for a Minute

[Industrial Toys]

I kind of just tied it together and since they were renting the place this summer to many different people, anyone could have done it! I know, I don't feel too good about it!

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

..... I would not be getting anywhere near private driveways. .....

Really??? Then please explain this from your first post:

..... I could also supplement by driving around neighborhoods and charging homeowners for driveway snow removal. I'm confident I could go house to house and earn a lot. ......

 

[Olympus]

Really??? Then please explain this from your first post:

I was referring to just doing my own subdivision roads in that particular post.

 

[murphy1244]

We have approximately 2 miles of blacktop roads in our subdivision. I have a full time job, but it is very flexible and I have plenty of time off that I could use to maintain the roads. I could also supplement by driving around neighborhoods and charging homeowners for driveway snow removal. I'm confident I could go house to house and earn a lot. I could charge a lot less than the main companies

Sounds like this?

 

[mark02tj]

Olympus - You've been given a LOT of GOOD ADVICE in this thread but it sounds like you've already made up your mind to do this. I'm going to repeat some of the same advice just because I think you need to hear it again.

First, in spite of what you may want to think, this will be a REAL BUSINESS!! Someone is paying the current guy to do this. Is it your Homeowners' Association? (HOA) If so, the HOA is required to report what they're paying people for services to the IRS. You will get (or should get) a 1099-MISC for "non-employee compensation". You will need to report this income on your income tax return on a Schedule-C. You will need to pay income tax on the income as well as "self-employment tax" which is actually social security tax. The self-employment tax is about 15% plus the income tax on it. Even if you don't get a 1099 from the HOA, you are still REQUIRED BY LAW to report the income. If you don't and you get caught, it could be considered tax evasion. You won't go to jail, but it won't be a pleasant experience. There's more to the reporting stuff that I won't get into here. Someone above recommended getting a CPA. I'm a CPA (I don't practice anymore) and will tell you again - get a CPA! (That's yet another expense!!)

Second - Get insurance. You will break or damage something that belongs to someone else. And someone else will want you to be responsible. Yeah, I know it's your neighbors but they don't want to be paying out of their pockets. Neighbors can be a**holes, regardless of what you want to think. Once you start taking money, you're no longer "doing them a favor", you are "charging for a service". That means that the recipient of the service (formerly a favor) goes from being a friend/neighbor to being a customer. That also means that your work is going to be critiqued by the HOA. If they decide you're not doing any better than the current guy, you could be replaced as well. What then?

Third - As someone else mentioned, RUST!!! I live in the saltbelt too so I do know a little about road salt and rust. There is NO WAY that I want salt around my tractor! While I was looking for my tractor I enlisted the help of someone that I knew who also happened to be a former lead mechanic at our local Deere dealer. After he checked out the tractor that I ended up buying, he pointed out another one that was in the lot. It happened to belong to a local landscaping company that used it for exactly what you want to use yours for. He pointed out the pitting in the tractor frame as well as the hydraulic lines. He said that once this starts you can't stop it. Replacing all the lines was in the cards for that tractor. So, if you do this, be sure to charge enough to factor in job related repairs to your tractor. That's why the other guy is getting what he gets for each trip out there. It may sound like a lot of money to clear your road, but once you factor in taxes, insurance, repairs, fuel, salt, etc., etc., etc., etc., there ain't much left over! Speaking of repairs, a buddy of mine that clears roads with his truck just had to replace the frame of his plow ($1600) and the transmission in his truck ($2100). Are you considering stuff like that? Also, what if your equipment is down for some reason and you get a big snow? You're still responsible for clearing that road? Do you have a backup plan? (sorry - I digressed! This paragraph was supposed to be about salt! :laughing

I could go on and on, but hopefully you get my point. I'm not trying to discourage you, but I (and others here) want you to be aware that there's much more than just having someone else pay for your tractor. If you want to start a business, start one! I've been self-employed for almost 23 years (not to mention the little business that I owned while I was in college) and wouldn't trade it for anything. I made a LOT of mistakes during those 23 years so I'm trying to give you some of the experience of this gray haired guy!

Good luck with whatever you decide!!

 

[dave1949]

You asked for advice from experienced and professional people here. I think you got that.

There is no point in getting defensive about it if it doesn't agree with your thoughts. What good is advice that only agrees with you?

Aside from the insurance and other business issues, I would be concerned about the money needed to set-up the operation in a way you will want to live with. It isn't just a tractor you will need. You would need some sort of salt and sand storage that will keep it dry, otherwise you will have a saturated frozen pile that will be difficult to load in a sander. It will be lumpy and not spread easily. This will lead to waste and increase your costs besides being a PITA and lots of extra labor.

If the sander is on the rear of your tractor, how will the loader on the front end fill the sander? Do you plan on hand shoveling, or buy another piece of equipment? I'm not sure your tractor is even big enough to efficiently spread sand on two miles of roads. How many trips shuttling back and forth are you willing to make? Sanders aren't cheap and salt eats them up too.

The advice here isn't saying you can't possibly do this. People are saying you do need to think it through carefully, so you know up-front what you are getting into. It is a common mistake to make an uninformed decision and then work at justifying it. I'm pretty sure we have all done that. Information first, decisions second.

 

[fordmantpw]

The subdivision would not hold me liable for any to the roads either.

Don't bet on that! Plus, plowing driveways, you hit a mailbox, tear up a fence, etc., and there goes all your profit for that year plus some.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just giving you something to think about. Remember, sadly, that this is a very litigious society we live in today.

 

[dragoneggs]

I am in total agreement with most that have replied here. Sounds like you really want to upgrade your ride and think a little business will make it easier to sell the purchase to your 'better half'. A few cash or barter jobs here and there might not cause a '**** storm' of problems and liabilities and help make a payment or two, but I would NOT set up a business necessary to pay a loan. I think Dave tried to warn you already... you need to minimize your risk. Your plan sounds good on the surface but once it is in recurring mode, you WILL have an issue that will sting. Hopefully not too bad. Good luck.

 

[brin]

Years ago I had an International Scout with a Snow Plow and made some good side money plowing commercial parking lots and some residential driveways...a lot more comfortable than an open station tractor seat...I bought the rig used and sold it for about what I paid for it...several years later.

 

[Olympus]

Every house sits on at least 3 acres, most are on more. There is not a single house that sits close to the road. No danger of fences to hit. Mailboxes are a possibility, but I can easily and cheaply replace a treated post and mailbox on the rare possibility that one was hit.

I would not be using sand. The current guy does not do that. Heck, he barely puts out much salt.

My thoughts on a spreader would be to use a buggy type with a roll over tarp pulled by drawbar on the tractor. Fill the buggy up late summer or fall, store it indoors in my shop, then use it as necessary. The buggy spreader keeps the thrown salt that much further behind my tractor to keep the salt away from the machine.

Those were my initial thoughts at least.

 

[rsallen]

Let someone else do the roadways,
just pick up two or three or however many driveways you can handle.
If you want you can grow from there.

 

[farmgirl19]

If your tractor will be off of your property, you'll want insurance. And, if an HOA is involved, you'll definitely want insurance. (I still haven't figured out why those things exists. You want to tell me what I can and can't do, on MY property, AND pay you to do so?) Even if you don't hit anything, being in a "residential area", someone else could back into you, or similar. Accidents happen all the time.

I would get the tractor that served my own needs, and if I planned to take it off of my property, I'd have insurance for thst, so that I could help a neighbor in need.

Other than that, I can't add much, as others have covered things well. You have been given very good advice!

 

[Olympus]

I copy loud and clear on the insurance thing.

 

[Olympus]

Instead of spreading salt, what is the possibility of spraying a brine solution or something similar as a pre-treat?

A trailer-mounted tank with a small boom that could be pulled behind a tractor is easy to come by in my area. This seems like it might be easier to store than bulk salt. Possibly not as likely to cause damage to the tractor as salt?

 

[fordmantpw]

Instead of spreading salt, what is the possibility of spraying a brine solution or something similar as a pre-treat?

A trailer-mounted tank with a small boom that could be pulled behind a tractor is easy to come by in my area. This seems like it might be easier to store than bulk salt. Possibly not as likely to cause damage to the tractor as salt?

The only thing worse than salt is salt water. It gets in places that even salt cannot get.

 

[Olympus]

Ok, I see that. It's there a less corrosive option? Calcium chloride maybe?

 

[fordmantpw]

Ok, I see that. It's there a less corrosive option? Calcium chloride maybe?

Honestly, I won't be much help with that. I don't know of the properties or effectiveness of the various options.

For a two mile long road, if it isn't very hilly, I would think you could probably get by with some cinders and/or sand. Our county road is a half-mile long, and they use nothing but cinders here. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of the county roads around here are treated with salt. I'm pretty sure it's all cinders.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I saw a Cub Cadet UV with a salt spreader mounted in the back. You have no idea how old and beat up that thing looks after only a couple of seasons. I bought a Steiner that had obviously been around salt. Everything on the azz end was totally rusted and seized up. Not very nce!

As far as what people can be like. There was that story out of the States a short while back. Young kid gets stuck and some good samaritans stop to help. Seems they broke his spoiler and he is now suing them for damages.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I copy loud and clear on the insurance thing.

One thing you haven't mentioned about insurance is financing. Unless you pay cash for your tractor, the finance company is going to require you to have at least enough insurance to cover the loan payoff. And if you are using it commercially, it has to be commercial insurance policy or they wont pay if something happens. You will get insurance or the finance company will get it for you usually at a high rate and put it on your note. You wont have a choice on that, so you may as well find a good policy for yourself. Regardless if you don't think you will be liable for any damage, get a good liability policy, an outsider could be travelling in the sub-division and run into your tractor and even if not your fault, you could be in for some serious legal battles.
If you insist on doing this job, you have to treat it just like a full time business, with a business plan that includes equipment & operation costs and this includes depreciation of equipment (tax write off on that), labor cost (even if it is your own labor you must figure in some $$$ for your time) and of course the obligatory taxes of state and federal and any local taxes that might be applicable. Once you get that all down on paper and see the cost, you can then see if you will make money or loose money. I am betting that you cant operate the equipment and pay taxes for the $400 charge per snow. If you aren't making at least $75 per hour of your time, you are loosing money in the long run.

 

[leonz]

I need some professional advise from the more experienced members. I'm currently in the market to upgrade tractors. Right now I have a John Deere 750 (20hp) that I use to brush hog 6 acres and grade a gravel driveway. I've been thinking of upgrading to a comparable size tractor or SCUT so that I can get a FEL and hydrostatic tranny. I've been preparing to spend $13K maximum and I've been researching the obvious choices.

Then I had a thought today that might totally change my direction, and that's where I need advise from the members. Instead of spending $13K to buy a SCUT outright, what if I jumped up to a small compact tractor with a cab? Still keep the FEL and hyrdo tranny though. I would be putting approximately $13K as a down payment and then I would be financing the rest. The reason I would consider a very small cab tractor is that I could every easily get the approval to do snow removal and salt spreading for our subdivision. I could offset the additional cost of the more expensive tractor by putting the tractor to work for me. I would be able to pay off the tractor faster with the funds received from the subdivision snow removal. I live in Missouri and we don't get a ton of snow, but we do get one or two good snows per year. The last few years, we've gotten several big snows. The current landscape guy that does the subdivision doesn't do a very good job. He charges $400 per trip through the subdivision to blade the roads and $600 per trip to salt the roads. We have approximately 2 miles of blacktop roads in our subdivision. I have a full time job, but it is very flexible and I have plenty of time off that I could use to maintain the roads. I could also supplement by driving around neighborhoods and charging homeowners for driveway snow removal. I'm confident I could go house to house and earn a lot. I could charge a lot less than the main companies because it would not be a job for me. Any money I earned would just go toward paying off the loan of the tractor. Once the tractor was paid off, I would have no obligation to continue doing the snow removal for the subdivision if I found out that it was more hassle than I wanted.

So there's my big scheme. Can you tell me if this is a pipe dream or if I should stick to just upgrading my little tractor like I was originally planning on. Keep in mind, when I say a cab tractor, I mean the smallest one model I can get so that I can still use it to brush hog my little 6 acres and grade my driveway. I can't use anything very big for my property.

About your project;

Are you sure he charges $400.00 dollars per push for plowing
and $600.00 for salting?????

It sounds seriously like he is pulling your chain and stealing your beer.

the only way you will know how much he is charging is asking the HOA board to see the contract.


"HIS" prices for that size subdivision would entail 200-500 homes on the private road way.

Salting and most spin cast spreaders do not mix!!!!!!! a pendulum spreader will save you time and money
and you will have zero waste.


Your also dealing with what is called a "snow event" and what the "snow depth trigger" for work is which may be 2 inches or less.


You have to forget any deicing liquids period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are still serious the only way to handle it is with salting sand which is a mixture of salt and concrete sand which costs much less than road salt.

You will be spending hundreds of dollars on bagged Halite per pallet of 50 pound bags with 40 bags per pallet and unless you store it in a dry place with a dehumidifier you can count on breaking every bag with a sledge hammer the next year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





UNLESS you have an unbreakable contract for at least five years walk away.


SO you had better just work on your own disaster area.