Hydrogen infrastructure

[Torvy]

good for you

here forecasts are for the-guy above you...to give to the guy above him...for the guy above him....so he can tell his boss.

i worked in sales dealing with huge companies and lots of $ and programs that lasted years and, based on my experience, the notion that a forecast is used to plan, imho, is fantasy.

i'm glad they do it in scandinavia.

True for Sales, pure fantasy. Operations, on the other hand often live or die by accurate forecasts.

 

[kirkawilson]

Here is another company 'giving it a go':

https://www.neoh2.com/

 

[zzvyb6]

Back in the '80's, I worked on a hydrogen vehicle platform at GM using a fuel cell to power an electric car. The EV1 was supposed to receive such a cell (joint venture between GM & Cornell University & BMW). But, the State of Kalifornia backed out of an agreement to allow hydrogen fueling stations for these vehicles. A major concern in the design was the 5000 psi hydrogen tank needed to get a decent customer acceptable range out of such a vehicle. (The energy density with carbon based fuels is exceptional, hydrogen, not so great). A fueling station would swap tanks, not fill them. The crash concerns also helped kill it, not from fire (the colorless hydrogen fire quickly goes upward and away from the wreckage unlike gasoline) but from the concussive force of the explosion. This concern was not just for occupants, but for EMS, Fire, and Safety personnel. The goal was to have a small car and a pickup truck running with 4 electric motors. BTW: the State of NY also came up with an idea from the past when horses were scared of cars. The EV's were too quiet, so you had to have a periodic noisemaker to warn pedestrians of your approach.

Anybody notice the new concerns about the high (450) voltage in today's electric cars ? Mercedes has issued a warning/requirement that Safety personnel must wait at least 1 minute after a crash, for the battery and electrical component damage to settle out. If you run into one, don't let anybody lick the terminals.

 

[Jstpssng]

If you run into one, don't let anybody lick the terminals.

I may have to print this off and tape it to my first aid kit. A good reminder if I come across an accident... Do I lick those terminals to deactivate them?

 

[3930dave]

based on my experience, the notion that a forecast is used to plan, imho, is fantasy.

i'm glad they do it in scandinavia.

With you there... I was used to getting beaten with rubber-hoses here, over deviations from forecasts....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Here is another company 'giving it a go':

https://www.neoh2.com/

One of their markets is as a supplementary fuel, added to diesel.

Similar focus in the UK, looking to add to natgas for residential use. Gives some small reduction in emissions, w/o having to do major re-piping etc. as the hydrogen content is relatively low.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Back in the '80's, I worked on a hydrogen vehicle platform at GM using a fuel cell to power an electric car. The EV1 was supposed to receive such a cell (joint venture between GM & Cornell University & BMW). But, the State of Kalifornia backed out of an agreement to allow hydrogen fueling stations for these vehicles. A major concern in the design was the 5000 psi hydrogen tank needed to get a decent customer acceptable range out of such a vehicle. (The energy density with carbon based fuels is exceptional, hydrogen, not so great). A fueling station would swap tanks, not fill them. The crash concerns also helped kill it, not from fire (the colorless hydrogen fire quickly goes upward and away from the wreckage unlike gasoline) but from the concussive force of the explosion. This concern was not just for occupants, but for EMS, Fire, and Safety personnel. The goal was to have a small car and a pickup truck running with 4 electric motors. BTW: the State of NY also came up with an idea from the past when horses were scared of cars. The EV's were too quiet, so you had to have a periodic noisemaker to warn pedestrians of your approach.

Anybody notice the new concerns about the high (450) voltage in today's electric cars ? Mercedes has issued a warning/requirement that Safety personnel must wait at least 1 minute after a crash, for the battery and electrical component damage to settle out. If you run into one, don't let anybody lick the terminals.

Hazards..... always hazards.

Interesting snapshot of a now-vintage engineering project.

Pedestrian made me smile, thinking of today....... since the majority of pedestrians are now walking along staring at their phone, should EVs just broadcast near-field warnings as they go down a street ? Joking, but not totally....

Rgds, D.

 

[Jstpssng]

Hazards..... always hazards.

Interesting snapshot of a now-vintage engineering project.

Pedestrian made me smile, thinking of today....... since the majority of pedestrians are now walking along staring at their phone, should EVs just broadcast near-field warnings as they go down a street ? Joking, but not totally....

Rgds, D.

Some feel that a car should jam cell phone signals as soon as it's put into gear. Perhaps extend the range outward, based on speed.

 

[Torvy]

Some feel that a car should jam cell phone signals as soon as it's put into gear. Perhaps extend the range outward, based on speed.

But, but, how would people know how to get places?

 

[rademamj1]

I don't often find myself agreeing with Kalifornia, but hydrogen storage tanks at 5000psi and moving down the road at 75mph, do provide some major risks on a highly mobile vehicle moving at speed, and often driven by drivers who are often Distracted or DUI or simply lack the emotional maturity to drive. In the future, i believe hydrogen fuel cells are going to form a significant portion of the US electrical power, but mainly from stationary power centers only. Though Toyota (Mirai) and Honda (Clarity) are still conducting quality research on hydrogen fuel cell powered cars, both are slowly moving away from fuel cells and moving towards EV only.

And Elon Musk, who has a "Future Strategy Team" composed of some of the best trained scientists around the world as his direct advisors, just cannot get past the dangers and potential liability of the 5000psi hydrogen storage tank. Tesla closely looked at, evaluated and walked away from hydrogen fuels cells in cars due to potential risks. I can understand that decision.

 

[Torvy]

Yet Toyota not only figured it out, they have thousands of HFC vehicles on the road, but none of these issues have arisen.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

As Brits say "Needs Must". Pain will create course changes.... seems to take more ergs to make elective changes though.... few (other than Elons) jump at the chance to be out front of change.....

Electric vehicles were produced long before any of us were born.... batteries have only really changed a bit in the last 20 years or so... It all takes time, and sometimes a nudge from circumstance....

Hydrogen is so pervasive, in some respect the forest is lost in the trees...... If the Hindenburg (never designed for hydrogen to begin with) hadn't gone up, hydrogen may well have been further along by now.

I've seen glimpses of big industrial interest in hydrogen. Pure electric (EVs) can work fine in a dense urban environment, assuming grid capacity matches. That doesn't address some industrial/commercial requirements though..... certain activities (mining, logging, shipping.....) require sustained high energy outputs in remote areas/over long distances - needs that pure electric will find really challenging for some time to come....

Diesel was first adopted (very quickly displacing steam) by heavy industry, before spreading into light duty applications. I won't be surprised to see hydrogen follow the same migration path.

There is no one Lord of The Energy Rings in existence today..... so having an intelligent mix of energy options available is the next best option, IMO.

Rgds, D.

Industry ditched steam ASAP because it is so horribly inefficient. A local lumber mill uses steam efficiently because it's a co-gen electrical plant. They burn junk wood to run the boilers, run the steam through turbines, then use the waste heat for lumber kilns, chipboard presses, resin stills, etc. The electricity runs the mill, and they sell excess power to utility companies. If you have to waste that heat, steam is a huge hole where you shovel money. Diesel is far more efficient.

 

[KennyG]

Industry ditched steam ASAP because it is so horribly inefficient. A local lumber mill uses steam efficiently because it's a co-gen electrical plant. They burn junk wood to run the boilers, run the steam through turbines, then use the waste heat for lumber kilns, chipboard presses, resin stills, etc. The electricity runs the mill, and they sell excess power to utility companies. If you have to waste that heat, steam is a huge hole where you shovel money. Diesel is far more efficient.

Well, not exactly. The diesels we have in tractors are maybe a little over 30% efficient. A large diesel stationary plant will be over 40%. An oil fired steam turbine is over 40% efficient. A combined cycle plant (gas turbine and steam generator) approaches 60%. Industry ditched steam primarily because electricity is so much more convenient and flexible and that electricity almost always came from steam plants.

 

[rademamj1]

Toyota has now sold 10,380 Mirai HVC worldwide over seven years, and no reports of pressure tank failures. But overall its a small number of vehicles, and average mileage numbers per vehicle is still quite low. No information from anyone regarding maintenance issues, common repair problems, reliability and fuel cell range per hydrogen fillup.

Interestingly, Shell Hydrogen is expanding in Kalifornia from the existing 8 hydrogen supply stations to 45 hydrogen supply stations. And the lessons learned from the many vehicle testing programs are being Integrated into the new supply stations.

There have been reports of on-board storage tank leaks. Some tanks have been replaced due to microfractures found in those tanks, particularly at weld joints. Much information is not publicly shared or made available, until extensive analysis is completed. Which makes perfect sense for an R&D program.

Once again, the potential risks of a 5000psi hydrogen storage tank is still there, regardless of the lack of any safety incidents.

 

[etpm]

Toyota has now sold 10,380 Mirai HVC worldwide over seven years, and no reports of pressure tank failures. But overall its a small number of vehicles, and average mileage numbers per vehicle is still quite low. No information from anyone regarding maintenance issues, common repair problems, reliability and fuel cell range per hydrogen fillup.

Interestingly, Shell Hydrogen is expanding in Kalifornia from the existing 8 hydrogen supply stations to 45 hydrogen supply stations. And the lessons learned from the many vehicle testing programs are being Integrated into the new supply stations.

There have been reports of on-board storage tank leaks. Some tanks have been replaced due to microfractures found in those tanks, particularly at weld joints. Much information is not publicly shared or made available, until extensive analysis is completed. Which makes perfect sense for an R&D program.

Once again, the potential risks of a 5000psi hydrogen storage tank is still there, regardless of the lack of any safety incidents.

It's interesting about high pressure cylinders. Aluminum scuba cylinders are pressurized to 3200 PSI. Certain steel ones to 3800 PSI. Though not likely to explode, and a leak would just be dry air leaking, knocking the valve off of one could be catastrophic. And I know lots of divers who toss their cylinders around pretty casually. Still, incidents with scuba cylinders are rare in this country and mostly involve older lower pressure steel cylinders.
5000 PSI is quite high, and I imagine even a very small hole would release copious amounts of hydrogen just because the pressure is so high. But since hydrogen is so light it would rise quickly into the air and so wouldn't pose a pooling risk like propane or gasoline vapors. I wonder what the risk of fire and explosion is for hydrogen compared to gasoline?
Eric

 

[rademamj1]

It's interesting about high pressure cylinders. I wonder what the risk of fire and explosion is for hydrogen compared to gasoline?
Eric

I am surprised no actual studies exist to that regard. Slow leaks of hydrogen, would not be dangerous. Its the catastrophic leaks, the immediate and sudden release of the vehicles entire hydrogen supply during a car accident, that has everyone concerned. The Fireball. I would think, that Fireball event should occur not more often, than today's gas tanks exploding on a vehicle during a car accident.

Meaning it does occur, but statistically occurs so infrequently for the 275 million registered vehicles on the road in these United States. Thus gas and diesel tanks are tolerated as a safe and acceptable storage for today's vehicles. While hydrogen tanks are considered to have unacceptable risks. Perhaps Elon Musk and his strategy team need to rethink about this more carefully.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

It's interesting about high pressure cylinders. Aluminum scuba cylinders are pressurized to 3200 PSI. Certain steel ones to 3800 PSI. Though not likely to explode, and a leak would just be dry air leaking, knocking the valve off of one could be catastrophic. And I know lots of divers who toss their cylinders around pretty casually. Still, incidents with scuba cylinders are rare in this country and mostly involve older lower pressure steel cylinders.
5000 PSI is quite high, and I imagine even a very small hole would release copious amounts of hydrogen just because the pressure is so high. But since hydrogen is so light it would rise quickly into the air and so wouldn't pose a pooling risk like propane or gasoline vapors. I wonder what the risk of fire and explosion is for hydrogen compared to gasoline?
Eric

Knocking the valve off of an air tank would not be catastrophic, since there is a flow limiter under the valve. All high pressure tanks are fitted with one, which is why you don't hear of oxygen tank rockets going through walls. The danger would be fire and explosion if the tank leaked in a confined space. When I was a little kid, somebody left an acetylene tank leaking in the shop where my dad worked. Acetylene is explosive in combinations of 5 parts per 100 with air to 95 parts per 100. The tank leaked until something made a spark. They picked up pieces of that shop a quarter mile away. I really wouldn't want to park a leaky hydrogen regulator in my garage...

 

[Torvy]

I don't normally look to government to back me up, but here's your DOE info...

5 Common Fuel Cell Myths

Fuel cell electric cars are some of the most advanced vehicles on the road today – and they’re here in the United States. Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda all have models commercially available. There is a lot of interest in these cars – and some misco...

www.energy.gov

 

[rademamj1]

I don't normally look to government to back me up, but here's your DOE info...

5 Common Fuel Cell Myths

Fuel cell electric cars are some of the most advanced vehicles on the road today – and they’re here in the United States. Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda all have models commercially available. There is a lot of interest in these cars – and some misco...

www.energy.gov

I spend about 6 hours over last two days evaluating the hydrogen fuel risks. Surprised not a single academic study was dedicated to hydrogen fuel risk analysis. Anyway. I have completely reversed my thinking, and moved hydrogen from high risk to low risk as a fuel for running vehicles. Certainly has no more risk than running gas or diesel in a vehicle.

But you got to be careful with US government websites. They all have a specific agenda.

 

[3930dave]

I don't normally look to government to back me up, but here's your DOE info...

5 Common Fuel Cell Myths

Fuel cell electric cars are some of the most advanced vehicles on the road today – and they’re here in the United States. Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda all have models commercially available. There is a lot of interest in these cars – and some misco...

www.energy.gov

Energy crises can make for strange bed-fellows !

Rgds, D.