Hydrogen infrastructure

[3930dave]

Somewhere along the line REDUCE was dropped (when we became Consumer Nation [post 9/11 we were told to "go out shopping!" - pathetic to the max]).

Can't say I follow every economic report, but laying the blame at the feet of the Consumer ("Consumer Spending was down....") started to sound like a broken record decades ago....

IMO, that ^ symptom needed bigger questions asked, about the actual problem.....

Why is domestic Business Investment so chronically weak ?

We (and most developed countries) have spent most of the last 50 years reducing or eliminating our heavy industries and much/most/sometimes all of our manufacturing sectors.

My simplistic view.... It's a Zero-Sum Game.....

Ergo, outside of govt spending, virtually all that's left is the Consumer Sector. Therefore, us consumers are the Fall Guy for poor economic performance.....

Blame The Victim, much ???

Rgds, D.

 

[DieselBound]

Dave, I was just reciting historical facts. I'm in no way blaming anyone (other than those knowingly pushing lies).

I had a take that was likely different than most on the outsourcing issue. Do/did we in the US really want to keep producing big screen TVs? And if China were to start doing so more cheaply then the US businesses would fold and the US (investors etc.) would be out with nothing. I see lots as being a sale before things tanked. Of course, what we've now seen is that there are KEY manufacturing activities that really shouldn't be sold or offshore'd. NOTE: in NO way am I anti-worker (completely the opposite).

The US's main product is the USD. The financialization of the economy/country [again, US-centric] started once the USD was decoupled from gold; it then started gaining traction in the early 80s (big neoliberal push via Reagan and Thatcher).

China's cheap stuff is like junk mail. It helps subsidize transportation costs for higher value things. In the US road taxes from POVs does this for trucking (yes, trucking pays a lot in taxes, but w/o POVs it would be astronomically higher). We are, therefore, pretty much a junk economy (not to be confused with actual recyclable "junk," which has value)...

 

[Menagerie-Manor]

Interesting article about hydrogen production from oil wells.

Scientists extract hydrogen gas from oil and bitumen, giving potential pollution-free energy

Scientists have developed a large-scale economical method to extract hydrogen (H2) from oil sands (natural bitumen) and oil fields. This can be used to power hydrogen-powered vehicles, which are already marketed in some countries, as well as to generate electricity; hydrogen is regarded as an...

phys.org

 

[3930dave]

What use do you (a society) put energy to ?

Detroit and Ontario (Canada) used to produce many tangible products, with our domestic energy and resources.

Now.... when that energy is primarily used so that our citizens can surf the net, watch Netflix, and mine Bitcoin.... well, perhaps those activities are still counted as "economic performance", but am I the only one that finds this ever-escalating virtualization unsettling ?

I often think of Merkel's comment (to the G7).... "It shouldn't be just Germany that manufactures things....."

The old summation of the last century or so "Farmer, Factory Worker, Clerk" leads to the central question - What do the masses do, for gainful employment, Today ?

IMO, using sustainable energy systems to produce tangible goods, then move them efficiently to end-markets produces value, and hopefully jobs that can sustain us peasants......

Or, energy ascends to be the plaything of billionaires, cruising around on megayachts and space toys....

.... I like my version, better....

Rgds, D.

 

[DieselBound]

Interesting article about hydrogen production from oil wells.

Scientists extract hydrogen gas from oil and bitumen, giving potential pollution-free energy

Scientists have developed a large-scale economical method to extract hydrogen (H2) from oil sands (natural bitumen) and oil fields. This can be used to power hydrogen-powered vehicles, which are already marketed in some countries, as well as to generate electricity; hydrogen is regarded as an...

phys.org

I wish there was some metric on what it takes to obtain and pump the oxygen down into the wells. If that's easy and cheap to do then this is, IMO, the way to go for the heavy-lifting machines (trucks, ships, trains?): I have some reservation about POVs, but am open to learning about how they could work (charging and distance; also space required for the on-board equipment).

 

[DieselBound]

Yikes!

Here's Why a Hydrogen Combustion Engine Will Never Be Popular - MotorBiscuit

hydrogen and air mixtures produce water emissions, but because of the high heat generated within the combustion chamber, nitrogen oxide still forms as a by-product. This compound not only harms the environment but also causes many medical problems, both short and long-term

 

[3930dave]

Interesting article about hydrogen production from oil wells.

Scientists extract hydrogen gas from oil and bitumen, giving potential pollution-free energy

Scientists have developed a large-scale economical method to extract hydrogen (H2) from oil sands (natural bitumen) and oil fields. This can be used to power hydrogen-powered vehicles, which are already marketed in some countries, as well as to generate electricity; hydrogen is regarded as an...

phys.org

THAT ^ is an example of.... Well, the (relatively) simple solution is sitting right in front of us !

Sounds promising..... I do hope they get commercial traction on those pilot tests.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Yikes!

Here's Why a Hydrogen Combustion Engine Will Never Be Popular - MotorBiscuit

Combust H2 with pure O2, no Nox, etc. Crack H2O with PV etc, burn pure O2 half the time, use H2 in fuel cells the other half. I do dream....

For a slightly less Pie/Sky view, McKinsey....

How hydrogen combustion engines can contribute to zero emissions

Rgds, D.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Dave, I was just reciting historical facts. I'm in no way blaming anyone (other than those knowingly pushing lies).

I had a take that was likely different than most on the outsourcing issue. Do/did we in the US really want to keep producing big screen TVs? And if China were to start doing so more cheaply then the US businesses would fold and the US (investors etc.) would be out with nothing. I see lots as being a sale before things tanked. Of course, what we've now seen is that there are KEY manufacturing activities that really shouldn't be sold or offshore'd. NOTE: in NO way am I anti-worker (completely the opposite).

The US's main product is the USD. The financialization of the economy/country [again, US-centric] started once the USD was decoupled from gold; it then started gaining traction in the early 80s (big neoliberal push via Reagan and Thatcher).

China's cheap stuff is like junk mail. It helps subsidize transportation costs for higher value things. In the US road taxes from POVs does this for trucking (yes, trucking pays a lot in taxes, but w/o POVs it would be astronomically higher). We are, therefore, pretty much a junk economy (not to be confused with actual recyclable "junk," which has value)...

So we moved manufacturing offshore and the companies folded anyway. I don't care about the investors, but I'm all in on the etc. Those were the workers and the suppliers who made the company go. Once upon a time, a company was run by experts in the field. Shoe guys ran shoe companies, tire guys ran tire companies, and electronics guys ran electronics companies. Then Harvard invented a thing called an MBA, and taught their graduates that ethics, citizenship, and responsibility had no place in running a company. In most cases the American company was profitable, but if they offshored the manufacturing they could be more profitable. As little as a 2% difference in the bottom line could spell the death of the American workforce.

Privately held corporations were prey to vulture capitalists. Take the example of Seely Mattresses, a tried and true, permanently profitable company that was bought out by vulture money. Then they borrowed against the company's future earnings to pay for the purchase price, and sold the company again, this time for a profit. The next vultures did it again, this time piling up debt that was impossible to service, but getting away with the money. Then they declared bankruptcy and sold off the machinery and trademarks to Mexico, where all Simmons mattresses are made today. BTW, the money went to the Caymans, where they could evade taxes on it.

In many, many cases, the destruction of the US manufacturing sector was intentional. Never trust a bean counter, because they won't let something like loyalty, tradition, or patriotism get between them and that extra nickel.

 

[Frankenkubota]

I was gonna give you a good post but it's better than good....it's true.

Quick story, sounds like BS but, it's true.

I repped an privately owned Italian co in the technology business. they happened to use a bunch of aluminum panels, specially prepared and machined etc. The panels were on back order and i was upset and asked the owner where they got them.

He and i became very friendly.

He bought the aluminum and anything else he could from Italian vendors, much more expensive than off shore and since the entire country was on vacation, back order till next month.

When i told him i could source the aluminum much cheaper in about 5 different places he just said......

But if i do that amico, my italian brothers will lose their
jobs. Just as simple as that.

You think you ever hear anything like that at the apple share holders meeting?

 

[Egon]

The consumer requires a decent paying job to purchase the goods that the producer offers. If that does not happen the producer has no place to sell his product.

It starts as a slight decline for a few years then slowly turns into exponential decay of the marketing - production system.

Inexpensive labor and large profits at the start evolving into no sales therefore no production, no profit, no producers and the smart folk that moved things offshore for more profit turn into poor folks like most of us And do not appear so smart anymore.

 

[Jstpssng]

40 years ago when jobs were being sent overseas the "logic" was that the US would become a service-based economy.
My question at the time was "Who's going to be paying them?"

 

[3930dave]

I was gonna give you a good post but it's better than good....it's true.

When i told him i could source the aluminum much cheaper in about 5 different places he just said......

But if i do that amico, my italian brothers will lose their
jobs. Just as simple as that.

You think you ever hear anything like that at the apple share holders meeting?

It is different in a lot of Western Europe.

Germany - even new workers start out with many weeks of paid holidays. Work hard, but get paid and play hard too....

I attended technical training in Stockholm. At the end of the wrap-up session, one of the senior factory guys said "When we ask you for forecasts for the next quarter, we are not trying to be a pain - we want to be able to plan things so everybody working here can get home to their families on time every day."

I have enough years/rodeos under my belt to be able to judge - he/they meant exactly what was said.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

40 years ago when jobs were being sent overseas the "logic" was that the US would become a service-based economy.
My question at the time was "Who's going to be paying them?"

It does seem that where we've ended up is Robbing Peter AND Paul, just so the CEO Bonus Gets Paid....

We've seen some general inflation the last year, and we're not done by a long shot. I believe that stable and cost effective energy sources are an important cornerstone of modern society.

70's was a good example of what an oil-shock can do..... causes are somewhat different today, but major changes in energy policy/pricing alone have huge impacts to the economy, even w/o all the general logistic and material disruptions we have at the moment.

I'm a fan of domestically produced energy sources, and I'd like to see hydrogen play more of a future role....

Rgds, D.

 

[Root Cause]

it seems like batteries keep making incremental steps. Competitors learn from each other and they continue to make real progress.

Hydrogen seems more like a light switch and no one has found it yet if it exists at all. Many are close but so far, no breakthrough that changes the energy landscape.

I started my career in tool & die and thought my job and the middle class was safe. I like history and realized I was repeating the history of a blacksmith.

All this to say, that great changes are taking place and I hope we come out stronger for it. Regardless, I expect to be painful. A once popular saying, "necessity is the mother of invention" may repeat itself regarding energy as well.

I too hope that someone finds the light switch and we have better options in the future.

 

[Frankenkubota]

40 years ago when jobs were being sent overseas the "logic" was that the US would become a service-based economy.
My question at the time was "Who's going to be paying them?"

you know, i've been thinking about that for a long time.

always a story

in jr high school (1964?) mr kamp taught civics and if you got him you had to subscribe to us news and world today, a straight up newsmag from the old days.

i hated it......what a great idea!

I remember reading that the us was transitioning from a manufacturing to service economy. i had no idea what "service" jobs were. Everybody's parents worked in factories.

The news just listed the 5 most unwanted jobs out there.....all service....childcare the worst, any kind of care was bad, nursing home etc etc.

i've said it before, everyone wants someone else to do the dirty work.....that's service jobs.

Not related but.....i also read way back then that americans would take 1/2 their meals in restaurants.

BS

We were not rich, i was 14 years old and never been in a restaurant in my life! The idea that we would eat in restaurants was just plain stupid!

On the other side of that coin, they said we would be outta oil by 2020......hmmmmmmm

 

[3930dave]

As Brits say "Needs Must". Pain will create course changes.... seems to take more ergs to make elective changes though.... few (other than Elons) jump at the chance to be out front of change.....

Electric vehicles were produced long before any of us were born.... batteries have only really changed a bit in the last 20 years or so... It all takes time, and sometimes a nudge from circumstance....

Hydrogen is so pervasive, in some respect the forest is lost in the trees...... If the Hindenburg (never designed for hydrogen to begin with) hadn't gone up, hydrogen may well have been further along by now.

I've seen glimpses of big industrial interest in hydrogen. Pure electric (EVs) can work fine in a dense urban environment, assuming grid capacity matches. That doesn't address some industrial/commercial requirements though..... certain activities (mining, logging, shipping.....) require sustained high energy outputs in remote areas/over long distances - needs that pure electric will find really challenging for some time to come....

Diesel was first adopted (very quickly displacing steam) by heavy industry, before spreading into light duty applications. I won't be surprised to see hydrogen follow the same migration path.

There is no one Lord of The Energy Rings in existence today..... so having an intelligent mix of energy options available is the next best option, IMO.

Rgds, D.

 

[Frankenkubota]

It is different in a lot of Western Europe.

Germany - even new workers start out with many weeks of paid holidays. Work hard, but get paid and play hard too....

I attended technical training in Stockholm. At the end of the wrap-up session, one of the senior factory guys said "When we ask you for forecasts for the next quarter, we are not trying to be a pain - we want to be able to plan things so everybody working here can get home to their families on time every day."

I have enough years/rodeos under my belt to be able to judge - he/they meant exactly what was said.

Rgds, D.

good for you

here forecasts are for the-guy above you...to give to the guy above him...for the guy above him....so he can tell his boss.

i worked in sales dealing with huge companies and lots of $ and programs that lasted years and, based on my experience, the notion that a forecast is used to plan, imho, is fantasy.

i'm glad they do it in scandinavia.

 

[KennyG]

....

Hydrogen is so pervasive, in some respect the forest is lost in the trees...... If the Hindenburg (never designed for hydrogen to begin with) hadn't gone up, hydrogen may well have been further along by now.

I've seen glimpses of big industrial interest in hydrogen. Pure electric (EVs) can work fine in a dense urban environment, assuming grid capacity matches. That doesn't address some industrial/commercial requirements though..... certain activities (mining, logging, shipping.....) require sustained high energy outputs in remote areas/over long distances - needs that pure electric will find really challenging for some time to come....

...

Rgds, D.

The thing a lot of people forget is that most of that Hydrogen is bound to other elements. It requires energy to separate it which is then released when the Hydrogen recombines. Therefore, Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is just a way to store energy. Compared to electricity, it has advantages and disadvantages, but I don't see it as widespread solution until we have lots of excess clean electricity generation capacity. In which case, it's still just a niche advantage.

 

[Doughknob]

Water. Holy Grail of energy. Hydrogen and oxygen! If only we could crack it for free.......