Hydrogen infrastructure

[KennyG]

[QUOTE[...not aware of any stand alone hydrogen gas fields in the world...

By "world" I take it you mean on this planet ?...otherwise take a look at the sun (no don't do that...!)...consider the sun...it's mostly made of hydrogen...that is so dense one teaspoon of our suns mass would weight close to two pounds...

FWIW...once a star like our sun finally burns out and implodes into something like a neutron star...that same teaspoon sized bit of mass would weigh over 10 million tons...
[/QUOTE]

Which brings us to nuclear fusion, which is probably the only way hydrogen will make economic sense as a fuel for large scale use. If we can only get there.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

You are correct in your thinking and the example of a car proves it to be correct.
My example was that you needed at least 20 fork trucks to warrant the infrastrure cost of a large, above ground tank and all that goes with it.
As stated earlier, the savings occurs only if you are operating multiple shifts. Refueling 1 fork truck between shifts (in 5 minutes) means you aren't buying the 2nd truck for use while the 1st one recharges (taking several hours). The end result is 1/2 the fork trucks, reduced footprint (where trucks recharge) and clean air.
So that is the sales pitch for better or worse.

When I was in college, one of my summer jobs was wheel-up driver in a freezing plant. I drove an electric forklift, and we only recharged it on Sundays, when the plant was shut down for cleaning. A forklift needs a huge counterweight, so instead of cast iron they used a huge battery. The charger was as big as the forklift, and used 3 phase power.

 

[Root Cause]

When I was in college, one of my summer jobs was wheel-up driver in a freezing plant. I drove an electric forklift, and we only recharged it on Sundays, when the plant was shut down for cleaning. A forklift needs a huge counterweight, so instead of cast iron they used a huge battery. The charger was as big as the forklift, and used 3 phase power.

I can't imagine what that battery cost back in the day.
Don't we wish we had taken some pictures of those memories?

I was 19 and working as an apprentice. I went to a forklift safety class. I don't remember, maybe 4 hours long. Took a test and they gave me a permit.
A few days later, the boss told me to go get a die off the rack and bring it into the toolroom. The building was 80 years old and built to make skillets. Now we were moving a near 10 ton die with a 10 ton fork truck. I asked a diemaker how the heck I was to move this die being longer than the isle was wide. He helped put on for extensions and I had to cock the die on an angle. I climbed up a few rungs of a ladder to get in the seat. I was terrified to even start it up.
Then the guy said, "Hey, the brakes don't work. If someone steps out in front of you, just drop the die on the floor- It'll stop. That was a long time ago but I think it's pretty accurate. I was sure I would kill someone before my first 90 days were up. Somehow, we all survived.

 

[DieselBound]

Something in the recent news may have a major impact on modern physics...

Basically what this is...Is a different (new) state of matter that does not follow the laws of thermodynamics...!

Eternal Change for No Energy: A Time Crystal Finally Made Real | Quanta Magazine

Like a perpetual motion machine, a time crystal forever cycles between states without consuming energy. Physicists claim to have built this new phase of matter inside a quantum computer.

www.quantamagazine.org

Wow! Who would have thought that the crystal-huggers were on to something! But, in seriousness, this is really a perpetual motion machine, something that was though impossible: I wouldn't have won the bet!

 

[DieselBound]

For what it's worth, here's one reference to my note on hydrogen boilers (I had a better article, one that was more about R&D; this one is heavy in marketing lingo):

Hydrogen Boiler | Worcester Bosch

Bosch isn't exactly a small company.

 

[3930dave]

Just started to look at this specific area recently..... what a small team at Stanford did a few years ago....

Can splitting water become an efficient way to store solar energy?

It's good to see a lot of initiatives in play, as posted here recently. Much of the general public doesn't understand that while a lot of primary work doesn't necessarily get applied directly, minor aspects of the same work may enable other important developments.

30% ^ may not sound high (esp. if you haven't looked at other processes), but when the I/P energy is zero cost......

Rgds, D.

 

[DieselBound]

Dave, it's almost like using solar to pump water UP (up hill) to store (potential energy). Let it down to a turbine and you get hydro-produced electricity.

 

[Hay Dude]

In the future, I think we'll be seeing a lot of innovation (and intrusion) in how our electrical infrastructure is controlled and "metered". In some ways, probably similar to paying for additional bandwidth or having your bandwidth restricted if your a hog. I can also see "smart chargers" that might control the charging of multiple vehicles each night and have the ability to look at charging hierarchy (mommy or daddy's car takes precedence etc.) and historical usage to determine what's the actual minimum charge that might be needed.

There's also lots of work being done to try to make supercapacitors that could take a charge in seconds/minutes and then discharge slowly. That would probably become a real game changer.

Cant wait for that.
Maybe the number of breaths we take per day is another new regulation coming?

 

[3930dave]

Cognitive Dissonance..... I understand some of the basics, but also need to do more study in this area (to understand what's going on Out There, not in this thread ).

If you learn to swim well and how to navigate and operate and repair boats, you have some options on the water. If you fall into the water with zero skills and preparation, then your only option is grabbing the life-preserver thrown your way....... or, maybe that's just how I see it being sold today....

CO2. In the news much, today. Last Biology class was long ago, so went to check.... yep, plants still process CO2......

We think we're badass with how much power we play with..... saw a # I wasn't expecting reading the wikipedia entry for photosynthesis....

Today, the average rate of energy capture by photosynthesis globally is approximately 130 terawatts,[8][9][10] which is about eight times the current power consumption of human civilization.

Like I said..... Bio is my weaker science.... that # would not likely surprise a Bio Major....

What are we doing about keeping greenspaces ?

A few Summers back, heavy rainfall flooded many areas near downtown Toronto. A cry went up in the city "This is the fault of Big Oil".

Did Big Oil force anybody to concrete over thousands of square miles of land ? Do you need a Masters in Hydro Mechanics to glom the consequences ?

Cognitive Dissonance...... I need to read more......

I like seeing EVs progressing along..... I just don't want them to be perceived as the only Life Preserver in the Water.....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Dave, it's almost like using solar to pump water UP (up hill) to store (potential energy). Let it down to a turbine and you get hydro-produced electricity.

I guess you didn't get that memo.... Hydro electric is evil !

JK . It's pretty weird how gravity and water get such a bad rap today. Unless (as I posted in another thread) you are a Nordic country using it to produce The World's Greenest EV battery in the high Arctic (no fragile eco-system there, eh).....

More rounds of Cognitive Dissonance for everybody, I'm buying !

(I do like hydro-electric, always have.....)

Rgds, D.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Just started to look at this specific area recently..... what a small team at Stanford did a few years ago....

Can splitting water become an efficient way to store solar energy?

It's good to see a lot of initiatives in play, as posted here recently. Much of the general public doesn't understand that while a lot of primary work doesn't necessarily get applied directly, minor aspects of the same work may enable other important developments.

30% ^ may not sound high (esp. if you haven't looked at other processes), but when the I/P energy is zero cost......

Rgds, D.

Catalysts and high temperature electrolysis are improving hydrogen production efficiency. It's good to remember that the process also produces oxygen, which has many industrial uses and is also valuable.

My understanding is that high pressure steam at 800 to 1000 degrees splits more efficiently because the work is already partially done. It's not financially practical at the moment, but solar concentrators in combination with solar PE could work without inputs.

 

[DieselBound]

Cant wait for that.
Maybe the number of breaths we take per day is another new regulation coming?

Here you go (note: this is FAR from the topic of this thread, but since Hay Dude introduced the basic subject): SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

 

[DieselBound]

I guess you didn't get that memo.... Hydro electric is evil !

JK . It's pretty weird how gravity and water get such a bad rap today. Unless (as I posted in another thread) you are a Nordic country using it to produce The World's Greenest EV battery in the high Arctic (no fragile eco-system there, eh).....

More rounds of Cognitive Dissonance for everybody, I'm buying !

(I do like hydro-electric, always have.....)

Rgds, D.

Average lifespan of dams is something like 150 years. They kill fish: when I was in the computing biz I'd tell people, when asked what I was doing, I said I was killing fish.

I was going to build totally off-grid, using micro-hyrdo (I know a little bit about the subject!).

 

[3930dave]

Take 2H, one O, and gravity.... doesn't get much simpler than that.

I've made reference to mass-psychology here, and no, that's primarily not my usual sarcasm at play.....

There's something I can't quite put my finger on, and I'll wander through an example, different than energy..... I noticed a while back a note on some Wagner brake pads, about the elimination of trace copper in the pads, allegedly due to copper disrupting the breeding cycle of something I don't recall....... that may well be the case, but my next thought was "OK, but we're still expected to believe that dumping billions of tons of salt on the road every Winter does nothing to flora and fauna ?"

On a broad-scale, there's an Emperor's New Clothes feel to this at times, and I see the same vibe with energy.

Protest a hydro dam, because you want to watch videos of free-flowing rivers on the iphone xxyy that you dutifully buy new every 8 months, while cruising along in your Tesla ZZZ, conveniently ignoring the enviro impact of all of your consumption.....

PV production is yet another dirty business that we've exported (the dirt, for now....but it'll be back....) to the other side of the planet...... Wind turbines are already ageing out and failing in Europe..... It all has a lifespan and cost, both in $ and environmental impact. To contend otherwise is intellectually dishonest, or at best, deluded.

That's why I probably need to do some more Psych 201 reading....

Now... back to regular tech programming..... I've seen a few nice micro-hydro projects done on Homepower - 24x7 continuous free power at any level rocks !

Rgds, D.

 

[ArlyA]

Average lifespan of dams is something like 150 years. They kill fish: when I was in the computing biz I'd tell people, when asked what I was doing, I said I was killing fish.

I was going to build totally off-grid, using micro-hyrdo (I know a little bit about the subject!).

Rivers killed people with every flood that came along. They also irrigate with the water behind the dam and increase yields expediently. Dams are a give and take, like most things in life. I worked in a few of them.

 

[Egon]

When talking about Dams the whole river system must be included. That includes the Deltas and flood born silt. Aswan Dam may be a good example.

 

[rademamj1]

PV production is yet another dirty business that we've exported (the dirt, for now....but it'll be back....) to the other side of the planet...... Wind turbines are already ageing out and failing in Europe..... It all has a lifespan and cost, both in $ and environmental impact. To contend otherwise is intellectually dishonest, or at best, deluded.

Rgds, D.

I have done much reading into wind turbines, their design, construction and ultimately their destruction when they reach their age limits. And they wear out much faster than anyone previously thought. The large off shore wind farms in Europe are performing very well and averaging about 2.5 MW per wind turbine. These are high maintenance wind turbines and have a life span of approximately 23 years before replacement. The wind turbines also create significant industrial waste during replacement.

 

[gsganzer]

I recently read an article that GE is working on programs to recycle the old windmill blades.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Here you go (note: this is FAR from the topic of this thread, but since Hay Dude introduced the basic subject): SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Technical journals are a racket. They charge a bundle for publication, none of which goes to the researchers. Rather than spending hundreds of dollars for journal subscriptions, email the researcher. They are generally happy to email a copy of their paper to you free of charge.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

I recently read an article that GE is working on programs to recycle the old windmill blades.

It's a labor problem. Windmill blades can be resurfaced and they are as good as new. The process requires minimal materials, but a lot of hand labor. Think putting a new gel coat on a fiberglass shower. It's cheaper to tear the old one out and replace it.