Hydrogen infrastructure

/ Hydrogen infrastructure #41  
I thought electric fork lifts had removable battery packs. And they had second set of battery packs to charge during the second shift, while the fork lift was still running. Yes a second battery pack was needed but, not a second fork lift for the second shift. Has this changed to non removable battery packs in fork lifts today? Jon
I worked at a newspaper for 30 years. We had electric clamp trucks to move the paper rolls. Forklift with a clamp instead of forks. We had 2 of them in our printing facility and 2 in our remote warehouse. 1 working and 1 charging. No battery swapping.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #42  
We also had 40 electric pallet jacks (lift only, manual propulsion). They had to be plugged in after every shift.

And half a dozen electric skid movers. They, too, had to be plugged in after every shift. No spare batteries.

And 3 electric skid wrappers. 1 working and 1 charging. 1 for parts! :ROFLMAO: They weren't real reliable and dock workers often broke them.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #43  
I don't doubt you MossRoad, but somewhere in the back of m mind, I remember a factory had two sets of batteries for their fork lifts. I am thinking GM or Alcoa in the 80's, maybe. Jon
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #44  
I don't doubt you MossRoad, but somewhere in the back of m mind, I remember a factory had two sets of batteries for their fork lifts. I am thinking GM or Alcoa in the 80's, maybe. Jon
Yep. I believe you. Seems like a good idea if it's easily swappable. Looking at ours, they were not.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #45  
I don't doubt what you saw. Seems like something some companies would try for obvious reasons. I think we can guess the unintended consequences that might have followed and why it was not adopted as a best practice.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #46  
I remember a battery charging aisle with the necessary bridge crane to handle the battery packs. Jon
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #47  
Hydrogen in compressed gas state is far more dangerous than any of the other potential and existing fuel gases. It also has the problem of short range like propane and CNG. It also requires a heavier storage vessel due to much higher pressures need to keep it gaseous. Real solution to these liquefiable gasses to increase range is to store in a liquid state which to date is apparently not strongly considered viable by the NFPA, ASME, and SAE. Liquifying is several times more costly than gas compression which then requires an expansion system to convert to gas for use in internal combustion engines. These all could be usable in both gasoline and diesel engines which all run on material in a gaseous state when injected into the system. There are many new rotary engine innovations entering the market that have great potential to use these gaseous products. Hydrogen does not release and harmful by products into the environment and have a very low weight to horsepower factor.

In the current economic and existing infrastructure fields electric cars do not seem to be viable. Where is all the additional capacity going to come from? Still has to be fossil fuel today for a reliable market supply. I see a great future for nuclear generated power if we can get the environmentalist to back down. Lot's of luck on that one all the same political force.

Ron
Mtoy
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #48  
Hydrogen in compressed gas state is far more dangerous than any of the other potential and existing fuel gases. It also has the problem of short range like propane and CNG. It also requires a heavier storage vessel due to much higher pressures need to keep it gaseous. Real solution to these liquefiable gasses to increase range is to store in a liquid state which to date is apparently not strongly considered viable by the NFPA, ASME, and SAE. Liquifying is several times more costly than gas compression which then requires an expansion system to convert to gas for use in internal combustion engines. These all could be usable in both gasoline and diesel engines which all run on material in a gaseous state when injected into the system. There are many new rotary engine innovations entering the market that have great potential to use these gaseous products. Hydrogen does not release and harmful by products into the environment and have a very low weight to horsepower factor.

In the current economic and existing infrastructure fields electric cars do not seem to be viable. Where is all the additional capacity going to come from? Still has to be fossil fuel today for a reliable market supply. I see a great future for nuclear generated power if we can get the environmentalist to back down. Lot's of luck on that one all the same political force.

Ron
My cousin has been mowing with hydrogen for years now. He has it set up to make it as he goes. He said it's dangerous. And if he says it's dangerous....
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #49  
My cousin has been mowing with hydrogen for years now. He has it set up to make it as he goes. He said it's dangerous. And if he says it's dangerous....
If you don't mind, could I have his name. I would like to buy a life insurance policy on him. Guessing it's not a sure thing but a lot better than a lotto tic.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #50  
I remember a battery charging aisle with the necessary bridge crane to handle the battery packs. Jon
Yeah, they are heavy, that's for sure. We couldn't change ours. When they'd no longer take a charge, we traded in the clamp trucks for new ones.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #51  
I know that in Europe they're working on hydrogen-powered boilers for home heating, to replace natgas/LPG. Reason being is that they feel that they can be "plug and play;" other "solutions" would require extensive retrofitting, thus, no matter how great they might be energy-wise, they'd be prohibitively expensive. So, I figure that it's going to happen to some degree somewhere.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #52  
Nearly all Hydrogen gas is derived from Natural Gas supplies, and i am not aware of any stand alone hydrogen gas fields in the world. Specifically for this reason, its a costly process to remove hydrogen from natural gas and liquefy it for fuel cells to generate electricity. Burning hydrogen directly provides about 61,000 BTU/lb compared to 22,000 BTU/lb for natural gas and 21,000 BTU/lb for propane. Future world conflicts will most likely occur over natural gas supplies (Hydrogen). I think we're seeing the start of such an event today with China claiming all the South China Sea from Philippines, Vietnam and Indonesia for its natural gas potential.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure
  • Thread Starter
#53  
My preferred approach to this issue (and many others) is a both-and rather than either-or. For some reason, people collectively seem to boil it down to false options. If we make EV vehicles, we cannot make HFC or ICE. We can make all of the above. We also do not need governments to build the infrastructure. Did the government build gas stations? No, the market dictated they were necessary and entrepreneurs took the chance and made gas stations...and were then bought out or forced out by Standard Oil...but I digress. The government push is coming in the US, from the president and his staff. Rather than the previous rules that pushed automakers to make or sell an average fleet MPG, the new rules are to require a % of the fleet to be EV specifically. This is a game-changing approach and seems to be picking winners. The political scientist in me is seeing money behind the scenes picking winners... But, this is not just a U.S. phenomenon. In China, they have a lottery for ICE registrations, and they are also pushing EV. As mentioned by some above, EVs are a bit of a false flag. The 'pollution' is just happening somewhere else. Most of the power generation in the U.S. (and China at present) is from fossil fuels. The battery situation is horrible and most of the component parts for the batteries are not something we have in great supply in the U.S....but they are natural resources for China. For the U.S. the power generation could come from nuclear plants but the overreaction to 3-mile island has effectively prevented the U.S. from building new ones since 1977. The improvement in engineering and technology can make nuclear energy a great alternative. Then, you could at least make clean electricity and that part of the EV equation would improve. You would still have an untenable situation in the US as the known supply of battery materials would run out faster than the fossil fuels they are supposed to replace. Since those are not available here, the US would find itself in a strategic conundrum. For me, the shift away from ICE is not about the environment per se, but about the inevitability of those fuels disappearing.
You're touching on some of the background "noise" (I'm talking about my head :cool:) I've got going on this subject.

Energy. Always big money to be made, both over and under the table.... so there's always that.

I welcome more awareness and more importantly, action, concerning using energy in a smarter fashion.

A lock-step, target fixation with only EV going forward.... I have some concerns.....

Years ago, watching a late model Civic in front of me on a 2 lane rural highway, I backed way off, during a snowy drive at Xmas. The driver was constantly jerking the wheel, and over-correcting.... sure enough, at the bottom of a long (straight) hill, the car went into the ditch and rolled upside down. I and others stopped; everybody was belted in, and got out fine. Young woman driving got out crying, saying "I knew that was going to happen". So did I, but obviously didn't say that aloud.

Recycling solutions for LI (and future chemistry) batteries need to ramp to scale, NOW. In some respects, modern cars, and esp. Teslas remind me of cell phone marketing. Things are changing in the world though..... more and more (often 3rd World) countries are now refusing to accept shipments of E-waste, and I expect that trend to continue. I actually find it somewhat schizophrenic that EVs (Save the Planet (tm)) are ramping in the market, w/o the end-stage battery recycling in place.

Other related noises (in my head), will wait for now.... off to work I go....

Rgds, D.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #54  
My preferred approach to this issue (and many others) is a both-and rather than either-or. For some reason, people collectively seem to boil it down to false options. If we make EV vehicles, we cannot make HFC or ICE. We can make all of the above. We also do not need governments to build the infrastructure. Did the government build gas stations? No, the market dictated they were necessary and entrepreneurs took the chance and made gas stations...and were then bought out or forced out by Standard Oil...but I digress. The government push is coming in the US, from the president and his staff. Rather than the previous rules that pushed automakers to make or sell an average fleet MPG, the new rules are to require a % of the fleet to be EV specifically. This is a game-changing approach and seems to be picking winners. The political scientist in me is seeing money behind the scenes picking winners... But, this is not just a U.S. phenomenon. In China, they have a lottery for ICE registrations, and they are also pushing EV. As mentioned by some above, EVs are a bit of a false flag. The 'pollution' is just happening somewhere else. Most of the power generation in the U.S. (and China at present) is from fossil fuels. The battery situation is horrible and most of the component parts for the batteries are not something we have in great supply in the U.S....but they are natural resources for China. For the U.S. the power generation could come from nuclear plants but the overreaction to 3-mile island has effectively prevented the U.S. from building new ones since 1977. The improvement in engineering and technology can make nuclear energy a great alternative. Then, you could at least make clean electricity and that part of the EV equation would improve. You would still have an untenable situation in the US as the known supply of battery materials would run out faster than the fossil fuels they are supposed to replace. Since those are not available here, the US would find itself in a strategic conundrum. For me, the shift away from ICE is not about the environment per se, but about the inevitability of those fuels disappearing.
Great points. Where will the next “Love Canal disaster” occur, this time with EV waste? If we are going to force manufacturers produce and people to buy EVs, then the government, who is pushing the green agenda, darn well better have a plan for its EV waste.
Also, If nuclear power were allowed to flourish, I think the naysayers that know EVs are essentially powered with coal, would be “all in”. They would know the chain of power was pretty much environmentally clean throughout the cycle.
Now we live in a country where many of our fellow citizens have the solitary beliefs that food comes from the supermarket, so I don’t know the level of awareness the average solitary slob has about awareness of where/how his energy is derived.
I have 2 nuclear power plants within 50 miles of me (limerick and peach bottom) It’s been that way most of my life. Three Mile Island is less than 100 miles from me. I think we learned our lessons and punished ourselves enough to build them correctly.
Let’s eliminate the hypocrisy of EVs and recharge them with a cleaner source of energy and stop acting like coal-recharged EVs are the answer.
Also, let’s not go too crazy with everything having to be electric right now. We are simply going to be over taxing the currently very delicate, outdated electrical grid. We know everyone is going to keep nearly EVERY vehicle “topped off” (of course all charging is done at night, right? ;) ). People will hoard the electric to keep 100% charged since it’s right there in the garage. Well, there goes the “low electric demand at night“ theory….
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #55  
We know everyone is going to keep nearly EVERY vehicle “topped off” (of course all charging is done at night, right? ;) ). People will hoard the electric to keep 100% charged since it’s right there in the garage. Well, there goes the “low electric demand at night“ theory….
In the future, I think we'll be seeing a lot of innovation (and intrusion) in how our electrical infrastructure is controlled and "metered". In some ways, probably similar to paying for additional bandwidth or having your bandwidth restricted if your a hog. I can also see "smart chargers" that might control the charging of multiple vehicles each night and have the ability to look at charging hierarchy (mommy or daddy's car takes precedence etc.) and historical usage to determine what's the actual minimum charge that might be needed.

There's also lots of work being done to try to make supercapacitors that could take a charge in seconds/minutes and then discharge slowly. That would probably become a real game changer.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #56  
The problem with ammonia is the nitrogen oxide by product. Environment NO NO. See my next post for more info.

Ron
DEF is aqueous urea CO(NH2)2, breaks down to ammonia NH3. The reaction between diesel exhaust and urea in the SCR (Selective Catalyst Reactor) is solely to reduce NOx from diesel combustion byproducts. So it is possible to drive the reaction with away from nitrogen oxide byproducts but it isn't natural or easy.

TANSTAAFL.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #57  
We keep hearing short sighted attempts to promote hydrogen as a fuel. There is a very basic and unsolvable problem with this. You can't mine or drill for hydrogen. You have to create hydrogen either by stripping it from a hydrocarbon or using heat/electricity to separate it from water. Either approach requires lots of energy that has to come from a different source. If you use the hydrocarbon approach, you are left with a carbon rich residue that is very tempting to just burn. If you use electricity, why not just use the electricity as the energy source in the first place and avoid the inefficiency.
Ditto.

Costs less per mile to build and buy a battery, charge and recharge, then dispose at EOL, than the cost of H2 even when ignoring the cost of the fuel cell.

H2 from natural gas is the closest thing to an economically competitive source.

One item commonly skipped (to make H2 look better) on the cost of H2 is the energy required to compress the gas into a practical volume. 3,600 PSI is considered the low end of practical automotive H2 tanks. 10,000 is the high end. All the energy used to compress the gas is lost on expansion. Then heat is required to warm the very cold escaping gas.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #58  
...not aware of any stand alone hydrogen gas fields in the world...
By "world" I take it you mean on this planet ?...otherwise take a look at the sun (no don't do that...!)...consider the sun...it's mostly made of hydrogen...that is so dense one teaspoon of our suns mass would weight close to two pounds...

FWIW...once a star like our sun finally burns out and implodes into something like a neutron star...that same teaspoon sized bit of mass would weigh over 10 million tons...
 
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/ Hydrogen infrastructure #59  
CNG is probably a good segway to hydrogen.
A few years ago there was a lot of hay being made about using CNG to supplement diesel. That a very simple proportioning valve could release NG into the diesel intake replacing a percentage of diesel fuel.

Considering the huge efforts to make 5% to 20% biodiesel, adding a CNG tank to replace 5%-20% of diesel fuel seems easy. If the CNG tank runs empty then keep going on diesel. One would use CNG to reduce costs, not because "the government told me to."

Am told there are ignition retrofit kits for major diesel engines to convert to 100% CNG. But seems one can partially run on CNG far easier.
 
/ Hydrogen infrastructure #60  
Something in the recent news may have a major impact on modern physics...

Basically what this is...Is a different (new) state of matter that does not follow the laws of thermodynamics...!

 

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