HVAC question...

[Richard]

As a function of some background, my system is probably pushing 8 years old. No less than that, no more than maybe 10. Heat pump system, unit for upstairs and unit for downstairs.

When installed, I had a weak moment and bought an extended warranty. Seems that was my lucky day as EVERY FREAKING YEAR since then, we've had a 'no cooling' situation in the spring time.

They found numerous leaks over the years, finally replacing as I recall, something internal to the outdoor compressor and last year, the coil part (?) in the air handler in the attic. It might not be the right name, but it's triangular shaped with like dozens of copper tubes snaking back/forth. Seems one of those connections (if not more) didn't have a good solder.

Ok, so here it is and my upstairs is 85 degrees again and not cooling. Call them for service he comes out Friday at 6:30. Hooks up his tool to the port outside and finds it DOES have freon inside. Pressure is something like 56 (or maybe 65?) what ever it was, he said it was dead on to what it should be and we had no leaks.

He grabbed the copper connection and said it was in fact cool and had I recently cleaned/replaced my filter.

Though the answer was yes, I looked after he left and indeed... it needed cleaning again.

Prior to looking at filter, I stood on chair, felt the air from duct and it did NOT seem "cold" air nor was it volumous.

I took the filter out and deduced that must have been the problem. Meaning, the filter was preventing the flow of air through the cooled coils and now with it removed, things would cool down.

That was 6 hours ago and it's STILL 85 degrees up here and it's been running full time since he left.

I just now took dogs out prior to bed and while out, heard an intermittent noise from where I knew the compressors to be.

Put dogs back in house, walked back and ironically, the upstairs unit has a "click" going on.

So, to paint the picture... upstairs air handler is on and running, thermostat is set to cool, auto and temp is set at something like 75 degrees. Thermostat reads 85 degrees and during all this, my compressor outside is NOT working, but making a singular type "click" every say... 20 seconds or so. Then silence... then "click" again.

I turned the outside breaker switch OFF for both units and the 'click' persisted as though I failed to kill the power. I put hand on unit, above where the tubes go in and could FEEL the click. Seems to me there is a solinoid behind there that might not be kicking over?

When the man was here, the compressor of course, was working absolutely FINE. I looked inside as best I could (dark out and I had flashlight with me) I did notice SOME dampness near/under the area but then, it has rained today so I can't be positive that's condensation or simply rain.

Ok, so that's the gist of my current problem. Unit is still under warranty but I probably won't be able to reach them until Monday, though I will try tomorrow.

Just wondering if I've seen enough & described enough to maybe clue someone here in as to what might be the issue and if it's something easy that I can do (like remove a dead spider from between electrical contacts)

I'm not an electrician, but I AM mechanically inclined and not afraid to remove some screws.

I do not know the brand of compressors nor did I notice any reset button. I thought/hoped hitting the breaker off would do same as reset. Seems I was wrong.

Oh, I then came inside, turned thermostat to OFF & waited a short while. Turned it back on and the same symptoms resumed.

Thanks for any thoughts

 

[TillerofdaEarth]

Richard,

There is a possibility that you have burnt crispy critters in a start relay. I had problems with pill bugs getting in my start realy on my old AC unit. They would build up on the contacts until the relay would just click. Also had the same problem with ants at a place we rented years ago.

When the crispies get built up enough, they could limit current flow to the compressor which may explain why it was running earlier but probably not at full speed.

 

[techman]

You are likely hearing the solenoid of the reversing valve. In cooling this is normally energized, powered by the airhandler.

If his measurements of pressure seem okay, you could have the following issues: filter and/or coils not clean, reversing valve not energizing when it should - you would be in heat mode, or the backup heat in the airhandler could be energizing. It is possible that you have a short or other problem in the low voltage (thermostat wiring). You need to look closer at the airhandler - is the line cool ? Is the airflow normal ? Can you determine if the heat strips are on ?

paul

 

[majik]

Ok let me get this straight....suction line cool everything fine... I think not!!! If the outside disconect is off and you still hear clicking from the heatpump and the air handler is running, this narrows it down to somthing in the low voltage control circuit. I need more info. [manufacture,brand name,model # etc ...] is this a R-22 system. What's the outdoor amb. temp. There is a big difference between a suction pressure of 56 and 65 psig. [at say for example]80 degrees outdoor amb temp. 56 will cause your indoor coil to ice up [giving the poor air flow issues described] 65 would have you cooling [although maybe not at the most efficent level] I would suggest you get a real HVAC tech out.[sounds like you got Freon Leon] Too many variables for me to diag. without seeing the system. I don't do res.systems anymore[20 years is enough]I now do NH3 [ammonia refg. systems] If you want your house at -60 than I'm your man. Please more info I'll help anyway I can over the internet. Oh by the way most heat pimps [yes I memt to misspel] defult to heat if there is a reversing valve problem[rheem/rudd screw up more wannabe techs because they default to cooling ] but this is good in the south.[ my family is from Knoxville They built a bridge through our property.

 

[Sigarms]

"Leon Freon"!!!! I've got to remember that!!!

Yep, trying to troubleshoot an HVAC system over the internet or phone can be a roll of the dice at best, however, with the following questions answered, any good service tech can draw some concrete ideas to the REAL problem.

I'd also be curious as to the model and serial number (always required).

Heat pump in cooling

1 Condenser air discharge Temp?
2 outdoor fan amps?
3 Line voltage a. standby b.starting c. running d.wire size
4 low voltage?
5 coil condition?
6 fin condition?
7 discharge line temperature?
8 True suction port pressure?
9 suction pressure?
10 suction line temp?
11 suction line set size? 11b Length?
12 liquid line temp?
13 Liquid pressure?
14 Superheat?
15 Subcooling?
16 compressor amps starting? 16a compressor amps running?

Air handler (horizontal)
17 filter condition
18 filter type? 18a size?
19 Supply air temp?
20 Supply air static pressure
21 Return air temp?
22 return air static pressure?
23 condensate trap? (y/n)
24 Metering device 24a TXV 24b piston (size) 24c cap tube
25 temperature drop?
26 total static pressure?
27 coil condition?
28 blower motor speed tap (cooling)?
29 suction line size?
30 liquid line size?
31 penum size/return? 31a supply?
32 number of runs?

Are all of these questions overkill? perhaps. Then again, you'd be surprised of the amount of compressors that have been condemed sp? and then having to replace the whole condenser. Just had a guy that had a new mobile home heat pump put in and the compressor wouldn't start on start up. You'd be surprised what a crankcase heater can do.

I agree with 120% with Majik that you may want to get someone else out there to look at your system. All of the above does take time, but it's training that every service tech should go through and know how to do to look at and eliminate certain variables (hint, if they have to change more than one part per call, you may want to look elsewhere). You should also cut your service calls down as well rather then fix a problem that you "think" is the issue and then perhaps cause other issues as well.

Just had a guy that was going to yank out a brand new furnace, a piece of junk in his mind. You'd be surprised what will happen if you step up your transformer size to handle the electrical load.

Last but not least, if you ever have an oil furnace worked on the and the service tech does not have a Bacharach kit, get someone who does!

Thats why some people do charge more than others (not always the case).

Ask the HVAC company if they are a member ACCA and if their service techs are NATE certified. If they are, you should be in somewhat good hands (that said, some of the smartest men in this business I know are not NATE certified, so...).

Hey, theres always the beer can meathod

P.S the worse time to have your system checked out is on a friday late in the day. They know you don't want to pay weekend rates, and if the service tech has something going on that weekend, he wants to go home ASAP.

 

[Richard]

Thanks all, I tried to comment earlier but got an error message saying something like “message only 5 characters, add more” or something goofy like that so I deleted it.

Tiller: I never even knew of that possibility until the service man made mention of it!!

Techman: If I had to guess, I’d say it’s a solenoid that’s clicking, much like an automobile starter.

Majik: I think I agree with your thoughts on the low voltage circuit. I went out and got the info off the tag:

Brand: Unitary Products
Model: EBBA-F024SA
Factory charged 5.69 lbs HcFc-22
Refrigerent line, size 3/8 liquid, ¾ suction
Includes charge for outdoor unit, indoor coil and 15’ refrigerant lines
MCA 14.9
Design pressure lo-300, hi-350

As for the 56/65 pressure… the point is I don’t personally know the number but he said it was the “right” number regardless of which one it was. Ironically my other unit was a "pound" (or something) low and he gave it a shot to bring it back to spec. The outside temp was (and this is a wild guess since I paid ZERO attention to that) maybe 75 degrees? It was warm but not ‘hot’.

As for him being a “real” tech… I know he’s been with this company for years. I’d put his age at 60 (as opposed to 20) I know because he is one (of several) guys that over that time, has been to my place. Hard for me to pay someone else to ‘fix’ it when it’s under warranty to these guys. Seems to me since it’s under warranty and someone other than me is paying for it, they’d have every reason to get it right?

Cool that your family is from Knoxville. I actually live in Greenback, between Maryville and Lenoir City. I do however, work in Knoxville.

Sigarms, I don’t know most of what you’re asking for (as in pressure numbers). The reason this specific guy comes to my place is his work is out of Knoxville and he lives in Maryville. He has to pass through Greenback on his way home. We’ve always worked it out where I am either the FIRST call of their (his) day or more typical, the last call as he’s on his way home. I’ve seen & visited with him at the local co-op too…he’s a good guy as best I can tell. (I’m not vouching for his knowledge, just his apparent intent of heart) Since I work in Knoxville, it works best for me for them to come by on their way home.

Turned on system bit ago and clicking resumed… would there be any inherent worth in me taking a panel off the handler to see if the coils are stopped up or since the clicking is outside, is it reasonable to presume the problem is also outside??

Any thought to THWACKING the compressor once, akin to “tapping the starter” on a car?? I’ve got a 20 lb sledge!!! (that’s a joke )

 

[slowrev]

Ok let me get this straight....suction line cool everything fine... I think not!!! If the outside disconect is off and you still hear clicking from the heatpump and the air handler is running, this narrows it down to somthing in the low voltage control circuit. I need more info. [manufacture,brand name,model # etc ...] is this a R-22 system. What's the outdoor amb. temp. There is a big difference between a suction pressure of 56 and 65 psig. [at say for example]80 degrees outdoor amb temp. 56 will cause your indoor coil to ice up [giving the poor air flow issues described] 65 would have you cooling [although maybe not at the most efficent level] I would suggest you get a real HVAC tech out.[sounds like you got Freon Leon] Too many variables for me to diag. without seeing the system. I don't do res.systems anymore[20 years is enough]I now do NH3 [ammonia refg. systems] If you want your house at -60 than I'm your man. Please more info I'll help anyway I can over the internet. Oh by the way most heat pimps [yes I memt to misspel] defult to heat if there is a reversing valve problem[rheem/rudd screw up more wannabe techs because they default to cooling ] but this is good in the south.[ my family is from Knoxville They built a bridge through our property.

I agree, sounds like the tech did not know what he was doing, you need to check high and low side pressure and and measure the compressor current too to get a good idea of what is going on.

 

[cup149]

Last but not least, if you ever have an oil furnace worked on the and the service tech does not have a Bacharach kit, get someone who does!

Bacharach, that's where I work.

 

[Sigarms]

Richard, apologies, I wouldn't of thought there was any way you would of been able to know or get all the information I asked.

For what it's worth, my very first thought was that same as techman, reversing valve.

The reason for all the overkill questions was because you've mentioned that for eight years you've had at least one no cool issue in the springtime. Was this always contributed to a leak? Needless to say, eight years with issues is not the norm.

By chance, is there a "York" lable on the unit? (no difference, just curious).

You mentioned lineset size. To give you an idea of the reasoning behind the overkill questions, if the lineset is run over 50' some manufacturers require a crankcase heater (if not already provided), solenoid valve, and sometimes you need to oversize the suction line, and with some, even the liquid line. Your proper charge of freon will also change per the length of run. Do I think this may be causing your issues? Probably not, however, sometimes it's the little information on the whole system that helps you to see the "big picture" to see where the problem may be coming from.

Although most of the time I have no clue what I'm talking about, the one thing I can do is read instructions. You would be surprised on the amount of guys who don't. I'm strecthing for straws for the numerous issues, but I'm assuming this equipment is the "regular line" of equipment this company sells? Some guys are surprised that different manufacturers may vary in their instructions per small differences in their equipment.

If I was the service company working on this unit, I would want ALL of the information I could get on the system and keep it on file to go back to the manufacturer with. Perhaps someone is paying for their work, or perhaps not. However, you can never have too much information on the system to try to figure out where the issues are coming from.

Again, eight seperate issues, at least once a year is not the norm. This job would of been driving me crazy. Spend the time, do it once, do it right, and solve the issue.

Did your extended wrty also come with labor? (I'm assuming yes).

Apologies, I don't have an answer.

 

[Sigarms]

Bacharach, that's where I work.

You guys don't happen to have any ECA450's laying around that you want to get rid of, do you?

 

[majik]

I hate oil.. I look like a chimney sweep and smell like a diesel mechanic. I still deal with the office/ plant a/c [almost/cooling] RTU's due to [in my opinion] bad work done by a local contractor but all except 3 are 7 tons of cooling or better.[I was to lazy to type out all of what you did] other than these units the smallest twin screw compressor I deal with is 125 hp the biggest 1000 hp.[ now that I've bragged about the size of my equipment..lol] back to the issue at hand. I have seen 20 year old techs thatwere excellent, and 60 year old techs. that were lucky to be able to tie thir shoes. If it's free you get what you pay for. Charge and airflow are critical on heatpumps since the evaporator and condenser coils switch roles between heating and cooling.[for example a n under charged sys. will heat fine.but will freeze the indoor coil in the cooling mode. I don't think its the reversing valve since these types of solenoid valvesare very quite except for the hiss as the gas changes directions. sounds more to me like a relay of some type.{which one is the big question.] if you could answer 50% of sig's questions, we would be at least 25% ahead of what most standard hvac techs. are..... do you have a way to isolate what is clicking?? My first assumption from your decription and based on the previous hitory provided is that you still have a refg. leak and your charge is low[excluding dirty filters, dirty indoor coil, improperly sized duct work etc..] way too much to try and detail at this time. if you could determin what is making the noise with line voltage off would help greatly.

 

[Sigarms]

Richard, out of curiosity, do you have another HVAC system or is the only one you have? If you have another, is it from the same manufacturer, and have you had any problems out of that one (if it deed exists)? I ask because you mentioned that you have a unit upstairs and a unit downstairs. I'm not asking for this particular issue (the "clicking") however I was wondering if you did indeed have two seperate systems, how do they compare in preformace against each other?

By the way, thinking about it this morning, was not a crankcase heater that started that heat pump that I mentioned about previously, but a hard start kit.

Majik, you're a better man than I!

 

[Jagmandave]

Majik,
I have ammonia refrigeration in my plant, works pretty good too, We only have a 60 ton unit right now, but are getting ready to up it to about 120 ton for some expansion of out plant. We only run to about -30* tho........

Meanwhile, back to Richard's problem.........I think you should get your buddy's home phone number and see if he'll drive back over and check it out for you again.....

 

[Richard]

Richard, out of curiosity, do you have another HVAC system or is the only one you have?

Two systems, installed same day by same people. Different sizes though. I've not looked but I would presume them to be made by same MFG. They look the same

If you have another, is it from the same manufacturer, and have you had any problems out of that one (if it deed exists)?

It does exist and the 'basic' answer is we've had no problems. meaning, they've put a shot or two of freon into it over the years but it's only the upstairs unit that has been a recurring pain in the hiney.

I ask because you mentioned that you have a unit upstairs and a unit downstairs. I'm not asking for this particular issue (the "clicking") however I was wondering if you did indeed have two seperate systems, how do they compare in preformace against each other?

The downstairs unit deals with main floor and basement. The upstairs unit deals with 2nd floor only and is smaller.

For those curious as to what the clicking is... as long as I turn the breaker off, is there any major issue (risk) of me taking a panel off to see what's on the other side? Logic tells me there isn't but then, when I was a kid, logic told me to stick a screwdriver into a live wall outlet...

 

[tallyho8]

Under the right conditions, a start or run capacitor can hold a charge for quite a while after the electricity is turned off and if touched can give you quite a jolt. Though I have had contact with many of them in my years of a/c work, none has had the power to do me in, but have caused severe head injuries when I jump and hit my head on something.

 

[Richard]

I called them this morning and they're going to be coming back out. I conveyed the observations I've noticed to the guy so that Charlie (the guy who came out) can hopefully have a heads up prior to his arrival.


Here's a hijack of my own thread...

Down the road "X" number of years, when it's time to replace this system... will I be able to hire someone and buy product "X" and them come out and simply swap out the handler and compressor with my current units?

In part, what I"m asking is, will all the hoses, power lines, low voltage lines stay the same and simply those two main units flipped out?

 

[kenmac]

I don't know if this has been suggested or not but, could the clicking be that you have a low pressure switch & the compressor is turning on & off due to the low pressure ??

You might find someone to swap air handler & compressor But I wouldn't do it . You may end up having more $ in a pieced together system ,possibly no warranty . You would be better off to replace all with an upgraded 13 or better seer rating

 

[Sigarms]

Richard, do you want to replace the entire air handler and condensing unit, or just the coil and compressor. Apologies, not sure per the way you worded it.

13 SEER is now the minimum rating that must be installed (unless you find someone who actually has a 10 or 12 SEER unit left, but then I've found that they will "bend you over" because they are the only ones who have one left).

If your unit is indeed a Coleman, not sure per the model numbers you listed, however a guess would lead me to believe that you don't have a 13 SEER unit that you're having issues with.

If you have a 10 SEER indoor coil and want to change just the outdoor unit, you MUST change both the outdoor and indoor unit to 13 SEER if you want them to work properly, and in most cases, stay under the manufacturers wrty.

I should also note that is only my opinion that you should have an ARI manufacturers "matched" system install at the same time (which means both the indoor and outdoor unit come from the same manufacturer, that is rated by the manufacturer).

A compressor changeout can get expensive just for the labor even if the compressor is still under wrty.

Air handlers? Depending on the location, labor can get up there as well. My uspstairs system was a PAIN in the butt. No way I could do it myself, I did it "above" board and got "legal" help. Complete system changeout, 56 man hour labors. If I had a couple of buddies help me, they wouldn't of been my friends after the job would of been done. Keep in mind, due to the 13 SEER being the minimum now, coil surface area has increased, meaning that with some of the manufacturers indoor lines, the equipment has gotten bigger. Perhaps not a problem, however, for myself, I only had 14" in width to get the equipment into the attic without cutting into the ceiling. Made it interesting. I also miss "up north" where everything is in the basement in an upflow configuration where you have lots of room to work.

That said, since you were able to have both systems replaced about the same time, I'm assuming there was no PITA work that needs to be done.

Depending on the BTU's of the system, you may have to change your lineset size (because of the SEER rating or manufacturer), which could be a pain in the butt as well (yes, LONG story, I went from 3/8"X3/4" to 1/2"X7/8", but this was a VERY long run, and for you HVAC guys out there, the liquid line was per the manufacturers engineering sp? department that I doubled checked with, it was correct).

With the pricing of copper, I almost fell over dead when I looked to see what I had to pay just for the lineset for my job. I already paid for my downstairs lineset a couple of months ago (that system will need to be replaced in a couple of years or so) because copper just keeps going through the roof (from a year or so ago, I'd guess by at least 50%).

I'd also look to go to a R410A system. R-22 just had one of the BIGGEST price increases that I've ever seen (we're talking like over 30%!, all you guys out there, I'd call if you haven't). Give it a couple of years, R410A will be less than R-22.

EDIT, after doing the math, at least from one major manufacturer, the price increase on R22 will be more than 30% easily.

http://members.cox.net/jamesmcalm/Calm_Domanski-R-22_Replacement_Status-EcoLibrium-2004.pdf

 

[Richard]

Update:

I called them today & gave them the clicking symptoms. Something which I didn't notice prior to him coming out the other day.

He was in the field, called his home base and said to look the model number up and get some kind of printed circuit board.

He got to my house and they gave him the board for the BIG unit and not the small unit

He's got to come back with the right part tomorrow.

At least the problem (clicking) was seen/heard by him!!

 

[Sigarms]

Please let us know how this plays out, it could be interesting.