Help with wireing

[tile]

Hi guys.

I need help on running some wire to get power out to my garden.

I have a breaker panel box thats's on the outside of our house in it has the main breaker for the house and the breaker for the well pump & a breaker for the lawn timer.

There are still about 6 spaces left for more breaker's to be installed.

I would like to come off this panel and run the power out to my garden for running two small water pumps ( on a timer ) and any power tools I may need when I work out there.

The garden is about 100' or less for the outdoor panel.

So what size wire would I need and what size breaker would I need.

Was looking and maybe doing like this kind of box in the garden.

# Includes 2 GFI Receptacles
# Two 20 Amp GFI
# 120 Volts
# UL Listed

Thanks for any help

Ron.

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Good choice on the GFI that is pretty much a code requirement any more. 10 guage wire would be my first choice for that long of a run. Use underground rated wire even if you put it in a pipe. When you lay the wire go plenty deep so that you don't hit it later on. Take a picture and make a map of where the wire is and how deep. If you sell the place or need someone to come in and do the work then they can use that as well. I used a 25 amp breaker on my breaker box to run my compressor. It ran pretty close to 20 amps and the start surge would trip the breaker at times. If you are using 20 amp receptacles out there then you might use 20 amp breakers. I am not an electrician and familiar with code. Just an electronic geek familiar with Transistors and tubes.

 

[radioman]

12/2 is good for 15 amps, if you going with 20 amps liek you said, it can overheat if you use it for extended periods of time. I go with 10/2 for for effiecent use of power and that long of run for power tools use.

 

[tile]

Thanks for the info so far.

I will go with the 10/2 wire.

Also just to make sure I do not burn the house down
I am thinking the black wire gos into the breaker then the white wire to the neutral bus bar
and the ground wire to the ground bus bar.

Or can I put both white and ground to the ground bus bar.

And will 1" gray pvc be to small for the 10/2 wire to be ran into.


Thanks Ron.

 

[2manyrocks]

Two additional questions come to mind--

1) are you supposed to put a disconnect box for this line on the exterior of your house and

2) is the outlet box supposed to be grounded into the earth with a separate ground line of its own?

 

[tile]

Two additional questions come to mind--

1) are you supposed to put a disconnect box for this line on the exterior of your house and

I know when we did the pump for our water we had to have a disconnect box at the well.

Ron.

 

[Airic]

If this secondary outside breaker box was installed correctly it should have its own disconnect and dedicated ground rod. If this is the case then Ground and Nuetraul need to be connected to its specified termination possition within this panel.

Ground and Neutral don't start getting important on the location they are terminated until you start adding sub panels.

 

[PILOON]

Your outside box would be a 'sub pannel' and the line to this box should be protected from the main pannel by a breaker which actually can serve as the 'disconnect' but, yes, you could add a disconnect switch.
My understanding is that any wire leaving the main pannel and not in a conduit needs to be breaker protected.
Black is power, white is neutral and green or bare wire is ground (like to earth).
Purpose of breakers is to be the weak link and blow/trip before wires melt and cause fire.
Charts will tell you what breaker to use for wire sizes.
Nowdays they bury wires with a caution tape buried slightly above the line so that a digger plucks the tape before hitting the wire thus indicating you are getting close.

Good lick with your project.

 

[WVBill]

For that long of a run and since you're going to put it in conduit anyway, you might consider single-conductor 10ga THHN wire and 12ga bare for the ground. Might be a little less expensive than underground 10-2 WG.

 

[Inspector507]

tile,
I have been in this trade 30+ years. Here's what I'd do if it was my house. I'd use 1" PVC conduit because I want the option to pull it out if something ever happened. Then I'd use either 10/3 w/ground UF cable or 4 separate runs of #10 THWN (THWN is for a wet location) single strand wire. 2 blacks, 1 white and 1 green. The reason for the 2 circuits out there is you have 2 receptacles. Why run them on the same circuit? That's what you'd have if you ran 10/2. I'd run #10 because of the voltage drop issue if you want to run power tools. You said you did. I'd bury it 18-24" deep. Put it on 2 20Amp breakers or 1 2-pole 20Amp breaker. You said you'd be tying it into the breaker panel that has the main breaker for the house, so I'd assume that is the "Service Disconnect" for your electrical service. Connect the wires to the breakers as you mentioned. The white and ground might be able to go to the same buss depending on local codes. Both of them are connected together right there anyway. If you have 2 separate busses then use them appropriately. No disconnect or grounding electrode is needed at the garden power outlet if there is no structure there that has power in it. You can install one of you want, but I personally would not.

 

[tommu56]

tile,
I have been in this trade 30+ years. Here's what I'd do if it was my house. I'd use 1" PVC conduit because I want the option to pull it out if something ever happened. Then I'd use either 10/3 w/ground UF cable or 4 separate runs of #10 THWN (THWN is for a wet location) single strand wire. 2 blacks, 1 white and 1 green. The reason for the 2 circuits out there is you have 2 receptacles. Why run them on the same circuit? That's what you'd have if you ran 10/2. I'd run #10 because of the voltage drop issue if you want to run power tools. You said you did. I'd bury it 18-24" deep. Put it on 2 20Amp breakers or 1 2-pole 20Amp breaker. You said you'd be tying it into the breaker panel that has the main breaker for the house, so I'd assume that is the "Service Disconnect" for your electrical service. Connect the wires to the breakers as you mentioned. The white and ground might be able to go to the same buss depending on local codes. Both of them are connected together right there anyway. If you have 2 separate busses then use them appropriately. No disconnect or grounding electrode is needed at the garden power outlet if there is no structure there that has power in it. You can install one of you want, but I personally would not.

When putting 2 outlets out out of a panel with a common neutral it has to be on a 2 pole breaker with a common trip to meet code now.
I don't recommend using a common neutrals

Run 2 separate circuits of 3 wires (H N G) each you will be much happier in the long run.

tom

 

[RalphVa]

For the juice to my carriage house, I ran a 10 guage line with white, black, green and ground through 1 1/4 or 1 1/2" (forgot which) PVC with little elbow boxes at each major turn but a long bent elbow PVC to make the 90 degree underground. I came off a 30 amp 240v breaker in the house. At the carriage house, I split into one 15 amp light circuit and one 20 amp outlet circuit with breakers for each and using 12 gauge wire on each of these circuits. I probably cheated a little bit on the 15; probably should have legally gone to 10 but figured its okay as it's mostly lights except for one 1/2 hp door opener and my small compressor.

I had an interesting fish experience after my contractor put a PVC line through the floor of my carriage house to the basement where the box is. He put 2 90 degree elbows in that PVC line through the thick concrete, because he was going down through a thick wall into the basement. I wondered: how in **** am I going to fish my wires through those 2 ells? On my fish I put 2 small washers to each side of a short bolt. The fish went through those ells like a knife through hot butter!

Ralph

 

[Inspector507]

When putting 2 outlets out out of a panel with a common neutral it has to be on a 2 pole breaker with a common trip to meet code now.

My apologies. Yes Tom you are correct.
(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.


edit.......See? Inspectors can be mistaken sometimes>

 

[CampD]

Just a couple things I'd add. use metal marker tape (can be detected with a metal detector) buried 1 foot from surface and no grounding rod, all the codes I know specify only one location for grounding now, reason it can travel down one and up the other.

 

[horse7]

For the juice to my carriage house, I ran a 10 guage line with white, black, green and ground through 1 1/4 or 1 1/2" (forgot which) PVC with little elbow boxes at each major turn but a long bent elbow PVC to make the 90 degree underground. I came off a 30 amp 240v breaker in the house. At the carriage house, I split into one 15 amp light circuit and one 20 amp outlet circuit with breakers for each and using 12 gauge wire on each of these circuits. I probably cheated a little bit on the 15; probably should have legally gone to 10 but figured its okay as it's mostly lights except for one 1/2 hp door opener and my small compressor.
...

Ralph

The breakers are meant to protect the user from fire hazard. With 12awg, 20A protects the wires from causing a fire hazard if overloaded. If you max both the 20s (or 20 and 15 in this case), the further back 30A protects the 10awg from the attempted 40A(35A) draw. In most cases (there are exceptions) code doesn't require circuit calculations to presume the rating is fully in use for each branch.

Besides this sounds like split phase 240 going to single phase 120s...

 

[2manyrocks]

RalphVA posted: For the juice to my carriage house, I ran a 10 guage line with white, black, green and ground through 1 1/4 or 1 1/2" (forgot which) PVC with little elbow boxes at each major turn but a long bent elbow PVC to make the 90 degree underground. I came off a 30 amp 240v breaker in the house.

So RalphVa ran 4 lines to extend 240v power to his carriage house and then split it into two 120v. lines.

Can you do the same thing to carry 240v. to the outside carriage house with only three lines if a ground into the earth is added at the carriage house or does it have to be 4 lines all the way from the main house to the carriage house?

 

[tile]

Thanks for all the info guys.

I went today and got all the wire and stuff I need to do the job with and hope to start sun in the am.

I am going to do as tom & Inspector507 said and Run 2 separate circuits of 3 wires out there.

Was going to start today when I got back home but about 4 -6 sheriff's and there chopper was out here looking for a armed man so me and my daughter went back inside.

Funny I moved out here in the woods to get away from that stuff LOL.
And It been about 4 hours and the sheriff's are still out here driving by.

Ill post so pics soon I hope.

Ron.

Ron.

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Geez armed guys running around.. Have them hold onto one of the wires and flip the breaker to see if it is working.....
BZZZ zap!

 

[RalphVa]

If you split a 240v connection into 2 120v ones, you have to have a separate return (e.g. normally the green-coated wire) in addition to the bare ground wire. Be aware that the return line and/or ground have to be big enough to handle the full current that the 240v circuit breaker is rated for. The outgoing dual 120v lines would be carrying only half the juice, but it all has to come back on the green or bare lines. You could conceivably do a 240v supply somewhere in the system (I'd probably run the lines to a 240v breaker), but be aware that the supply lines and main circuit breaker supplying them have to be good for the electrical current load by all the circuits that the lines are feeding.

It's all common sense. A little bit of electrical knowledge is useful and necessary if you're doing it for someone else or for hire.

 

[hr3]

Tile,,, Listen to the Inspector,,,do it his way,,It will cost you less and it is what any "Real" Electrician would do... As For Ralphva.... Ooooo those with little knowledge will get you in trouble every time...

Good luck stay safe...