Help with Paint Job

Yanmar_1700 · Sep 7, 2004

Thanks to all for the help. I am finally getting over the obvious mechanical shortcomings and now I am focusing on the body of the tractor. I have some fairly bad surface rust on the body parts. I have tried Ospho and other similar rust products but soon after the rust returns. I want to do it right this time. I have run into a place that will powder coat the parts. I explianed the rust and he told me he would "take it down to the metal" and start from there. All body parts (Hood, fenders, etc.) for $225.00.

In addition, Somebody "rolled" the tractor at some point because the fender is bent up. I bent/banged it back with a hammer and a two by four. Needless to say it's far from perfect. Are you supposed to do something special when you do this? Heat up the parts before bending and banging?

86turbodsl · Sep 7, 2004

To straighten metal you're supposed to use metal body straightening tools, like a hammer and dolly. But this is not something easily learned without practice. I suggest a body shop. They can do it quickly and for a reasonable cost.

alvanko · Sep 7, 2004

I think the price quote you got for powder coat is only for the top coat and maybe primer . You still need to repair the sheetmetal. If you apply body filler , will the powder adhere to it ? Can the body filler be heated like the powder is ?
I used good old sand blaster and epoxy primer followed with bc/cc urethane. Just painted this today.

mark777 · Sep 7, 2004

1700,
Powder coating does an excellent job and is as they say just paint in powder form. Absolutely True. High line powders contain acrylics, urethanes and UV properties that are added to powder pigments and are very durable (as durable as sprayed) and last for years.
There is a downside and it is BIG: even the slightest imperfections in metal can not be filled with the best products available, ie Bondo, Putty and 2 part fill and build and epoxy primers. It has been tried many times, but as the process needs heat. Metal warm up time (preheat) starting at 325-375 and curing at approx 400 lifts fillers off, powder will not stick and all adhesion is lost.
It is almost a lost art to prepare metal without the aid (cheating) of thin sandable fillers. It takes hours to "metal Finish" fair parts with spoons, picks, slappers and files. With all my contacts in the trade I cant think of one that would take on the smallest project without large compensation ($).

You might consider better used sheetmetal if yours is very bad or A shop that will rough out your sheetmetal resonably ($) and you use the filler and experiement by shaping and sanding. If you are piticular you will have great results. BTW if your powder coater does basic lawn chair and patio furniture - ask alot of questions as the price quoted to you is very, very reasonable. 6hot/8cold, good luck and regards, Mark

mark777 · Sep 7, 2004

Beautiful. Looks like my place, parts hanging everywhere. And I think I have the exact same PPG sign (next to an old DuPont clock).

Soundguy · Sep 7, 2004

Here's my .02 $.

Yes.. powder coat looks nice. For the price though.. I think you could buy a palpeen hammer and use that and a block and tap and rub out the big dents. A pulling hammer could be used as well. You can get some good usable cheap tools at many flea markets and chineese tool stores.. like harbor freight. Add a bit of sand paper , and some 3m pads and your drill, some bondo, and a good high solids primer.. or other specialty primer like a rust preventative primer, lots of elbow grease, and a can of paint , hardner, and a cheap air gun and you can have a great looking tractor that you did all yourself.. probably for less than 200 bucks so long as you own an air compressor. Only a tad more for a chap one if you don't.. plus you will then have 'extra' tools after that.

When I got my yanmar 1700, I knew nothing about tractors. It was cosmetically imaculate.. but needed some minor mechanical attention,. and major electrical work. From there I moved on to antiques.. like a 52 ford 8n, 54 ford naa, 66 IH cub, 50 JD-B, and lastly a 46 ford 2n.

On each one I learned more and did a better job. One thing I learned is get the metal as good as you can before using filler. And use as little filler as possible. Have two different colors of filler.. or run one with a tad more or less hardner to give it a different color when overlapping coats.. when you sand it down you will see the high and low spots much easier. Bet a bondo file.. it will save hours of sanding as you can hone and rough in your contours. Sanding blocks are nice too.

For my first tractors, I did decent work, and then used spray cans to paint them. They looked decent.. but used quite a few cans of paint.. and at 4$ a can.. that adds up. With my 46 2n I bought an el-cheapo spray gun from HF.. cost me 15$ plus another 19$ for a regulator. I already had a cheapy 89$ 2hp 4 gallon pancake compressor from HF. I plumbed in an old 15 gallon air tank I had for filling tires, and that gave me a 19 gallon air capacity. Initiallly filling the tank made the compressor run a couple minutes.. but otherwise worked great. I had never painted before with a spray gun so I victomized a piece of scrap sheet metal for a few minutes.

I used BPS paint from TSC, and their hardner, and naptha as a thinner. I used their equipment grey farm primer as well.

In short.. the results were astounding. I shot the tractor in about 20 minutes. Took about 2 quarts of mix, to do the tin, cast iron, bumber, etc.

The cast iron has a finish like glass. Hardner made it turn out great.

Plus I had fun and learned alot. I figure I had less than 250 in total parts, and materials.. even if you count my air compressor I already had.

Soundguy

F15DOWNER · Sep 8, 2004

I painted my tractor with Imron enamel paint that I purchased from a automotive paint store, all I did was take a paint chip in and they color matched it.
The fumes are a little nasty but this stuff is great. We use it at work on machinery that pumps oil over the paint 16 hours a day and it was the only paint that we could find that didn't let the oil get underneath and peel off. I have been painting for years and this paint is the best I have ever used. It drys fast, doesn't run easy and holds up fantastic.
My company's jet mechanic's are the one's that told us about this paint because that is all they use on on the company's jets, because it holds up so good, and it doesn't require any heat like the powder coat, so you can use body filler, they use all fiberglass filler on jets, but it is much harder to sand.
Tom

mark777 · Sep 8, 2004

0.02$ more,

As I suffer occasionaly from techno-babble Soundguy's approach makes the project realistic. Must agree with much he said. If your budget allows, and acquire all the basic tools and materials, you will suffer from too much fun and all those new best friends (asking is it for sale?). Add a good respirator, and HVLP (cheap) gun to your list as those are safety issures that are commonly overlooked.
Again, I gotta agree with Soundguy and the BPS products from Tractor Supply. Their paint w/ hardner is 1/10th the price of paint and additives over the counter (PPG-DuPont) auto finishes. My latest projects with BPS duplicate the High-line products and easy to repair.
Alvanco's mention of bc/cc (base coat-clear coat) systems offer the ease of appllication, opportunity to repair or remove any trash, and achieve excellent results before the clear is applied. Pretty sure he would agree -Start to finish chemicals, including epoxy fillers (primers) are not cheap by anymeans.

Somewhere, lost in my poor translation, powder coating is not better. It will chip, can't be repaired / re-baked and only use it as outsouced for a customer who insists. Personally it is not econimically viable. I will try attaching a picture of something on my back burner using BPS. Hope this helps and not hinders, OJT is the way to go. Regards, Mark

mark777 · Sep 8, 2004

Tom,
It is the best polyurethane "wet look" finish out there period. it is also the most DEADLY POISONOUS and unless your fully enclosed with Ty-Vec, fresh air suppled hood, neop. gloves and boots it will kill you. The systemic effects of isocyanites (skin 'lungs' eyes and mucas membranes) exposure take a while, but is not reversable. And if you can smell it and taste it you are in a "panic button" situation.
PLEASE get an MSDS and sit down with a cup of coffee, read it and then try to get up. Get the MSDS from whom ever supplied the DuPont. It's free for the asking and must be available upon request. If not, I am sure they have broken federal laws. Man, you dont have to be the whistle blower to protect your self. It takes thousands $$$ to safely set up to shoot a hundred dollar (2 part system) gallon of Imron. I hope I have some viewer support here. Good Luck, and be careful. Regards, Mark -edit-(BTW I am talking about commercial grade & aircraft quality)

alvanko · Sep 8, 2004

Mark,
Your correct about cost . Spent about $175 on paint,reducer,clear,catalyst . Already had the epoxy primer . Add sand blasting sand,abrasives etc........
gets quite expensive .However , if you go through the trouble of disassembling the thing , you don't want to have to do it again for a while. I do use my stuff, but also do not abuse it by running into or under damaging objects. I used the "discount" brand PPG (Omni) but it will hold up for many years . Have used Imron on several other projects along with Imron 5000 & 6000 . All good durable products , just don't have the money for that stuff anymore. I owned a class 8 truck repair shop for 15 years and could get a lot of stuff cheep or free. Not anymore.
Advise to anyone attempting to paint their tractor (or anything else), there is no substitute for good preparation and a good primer no matter what you apply as a top coat.
There's nothing like the feeling of accomplishment of when you finish a project like this and stand back with a cold refreshment. Have already had 2 people stop to ask if I wanted to sell it. Strangers just stop by. Kind a feels good.

Yanmar_1700 · Sep 8, 2004

Thanks again for the information. I will take your advice and get the spray gun and compressor to give it a shot.

What would be the best option for the surface rust?

mark777 · Sep 8, 2004

Right ON.
The only trouble I ever had with Omni was color matching and not applicable to tractor painting. Another tuff stuff finish.
Mark

Soundguy · Sep 8, 2004

For surface rust on the cast, I'd get some gloves and a big tub of naval jelly, and sponge it on.. and then when the rust was gone, get it cleaned up and dried.. and then prim asap.

Soundguy

gbirky · Sep 8, 2004

For surface rust, especially on rough surfaces like castings, I clean it up with a wire brush, then apply a rust converter. NAPA sells Extend brand, but Wal-Mart, and most auto parts places like Advance Auto, or Auto-Zone has the same thing. You have to let it dry at least 24 hours, then paint over it. I have had very good luck with this stuff.

jdmar · Sep 10, 2004

Did mine recently with a LOT of help from people here. I will try to find the link to that discussion. I used several different shaped wire wheels on both an angle grinder and drill to clean heavier rust. I also used wire and smaller brass brushes. I also used naval jelly after the heavy stuff was off. Be sure to clean off the naval jelly real well and then DRY IT FAST...use compressed air, hair drier, fan, whatever to get ALL the water off. I then wiped with thinner (reducer) Oops, I should say I cleaned/pressure washed/ oven cleanered(is that a word?), and Simple Greened it all before the rust removal.

Avoid the two part catalyst paints, Mark777 was "dead" on right. I had used them several years (?15+) ago--isocyanate type. One time i had a small odor while painting. I finished and left the booth. About 30-60 minutes later I suddenly could not breath...at all. This was no fun. With cough and a Heimlich from family I coughed up what was gross but was essentially a "mucous plug" of a mainstem bronchus. The paints caused local inflamation and **** near killed me...no joke. It was and still is memorable. I have NEVER used those since. Yes my mistake was a respirator leak...but that small mstake was nearly my last. TSC paint is good for me!

Good luck...and sorry about the disgusting story. I just don't want someone hurt.
Painting link

Peter

gbirky · Sep 13, 2004

Jdmar,
DON'T APPOLOGIZE! This is exactly the kind of thing we NEED to hear. I am certainly glad you lived to tell us about it. Having a nicely painted tractor (or anything else) is certainly not worth risking your life.

F15DOWNER · Sep 13, 2004

I was not aware that it was that nasty. The guy at the paint shop told me to make sure I had a good respirator, but said nothing about all the stuff that you guy's are talking about. I don't have a paint booth but I use an industrial fan and paint with my back to it outside, maybe that how I got away with it.
The moral to the story is: I will never recommend it again.
If you go to Dupont's site and search for Imron, it says that a MSDS doesn't exist???? I will have to get one from the paint shop.
Too bad it's that nasty, it sure gives you a nice and durable finish!
Tom

86turbodsl · Sep 13, 2004

Isocyanates = fresh air supplied respirator. The cans on the face mask will not cut it. I built a homemade air respirator out of an old face mask and a bathroom fan. Found a link for it on the net, it works good. I painted a fair bit of tractor parts with isocyanate paint with absolutely no odors and no sickness. Never smelled a thing the whole time I was painting. Be carefull! You only get one set of lungs.

mark777 · Sep 14, 2004

Great information here - from shared experiences, collective knowledge and well informed painters tech's and tractor guys. Very little has changed in the application process but so much in chemistry, personal protective equipment (PPE), and known long term effects.
IMHO: It would take hours.....maybe days to collect this information outside of the TBN website. And I am always impressed with how caring members impart their knowledge.

Soundguy · Sep 14, 2004

I've got a question on respirators.

We have a hvlp paint system at work, and stock a few cartridges for the respirators. I've also looke din the book specifically for elements for the isocyan-type chemicals.. and while I see a few cartridges that specifically say they don't cover them, I see a few that make blanked references.. I'll include the following filtered chemicals, and perhaps some chemists or chem-eng's can comment on the suitability of these elements.. etc.

organic vapors, chlorine, hydrogen flouride, sulfur dioxide, hydrogen chloride, amonia, methylamine, mercury vapor, chlorine dioxide, hydrogen sulfide, ( escape only ), formaldehyde, oils , organic and particulate aerosals, welding fumes, dusts, mists, pesticides, paints, lacquers and enamils.. Asbestos.. and even radon daughters, and radionnuclides...with a hepa and some other type of prefilter combination...using a GME/MSA super cartridge.. I see another filter that is for organics, and paints enamils, lacq's, but not urethanes, and diisocyanate's

Comments? Would that first cartridge work for those nasty two part paints? it doesn't specifically specify it.. but i see others that specifically say not to use it for them.. etc.

Soundguy