Box Scraper Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

[MtnViewRanch]

Do you call your std top link a tip link? No, even though tipping is what it does, it is called a top link. There is enough confusion now, please don't start getting what stuff is called more confusing for people.

 

[ovrszd]

Do you call your std top link a tip link? No, even though tipping is what it does, it is called a top link. There is enough confusion now, please don't start getting what stuff is called more confusing for people.

Okay,,,,,,, then we are going to have to call it a Top and Side kit, since the side link certainly isn't called the tilt link.....

I'll stick with mine,,,, since I would use it to "tip" and "tilt" my attachment. :thumbsup:

 

[RealJimbo]

Anyway . . . to me TnT is Top & Tilt, but call it what ya like.

The reason I asked about TnT with a boxBlade was that, on another thread around here somewhere, a few members mentioned a chain or simply removing the top link when finishing. And because I am new to this whole grading thing, I'd never contemplated that. But if the HTL can be set to FLOAT that might ackomplish the same thing???

And yeah, it's just me complaining, but Box Blades aint too good at moving material from the ditch to the crown.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Okay,,,,,,, then we are going to have to call it a Top and Side kit, since the side link certainly isn't called the tilt link.....

I'll stick with mine,,,, since I would use it to "tip" and "tilt" my attachment. :thumbsup:

In my owners manuals the top link is called a top link or upper link and the side links are called lift links. So I guess that they should be called tip & tilt as you say which actually makes since because that is the action that it does or top & lift as what their proper names are. :confused2:

Either way, go to where ever and see how far you get ordering a tip link vs a top link.

 

[jinman]

And yeah, it's just me complaining, but Box Blades aint too good at moving material from the ditch to the crown.

You're absolutely right. A boxblade can move material somewhat left/right with tilt, but it can't be offset and angled like a rear blade to throw material out of a ditch and onto the roadway. As someone mentioned earlier, a rear blade/maintainer of any kind is never going to work as good as a road grader. Boxblades can spread and move materials once on a roadway, but they are not good tools for recovery of materials from the ditch.

 

[jinman]

Okay,,,,,,, then we are going to have to call it a Top and Side kit, since the side link certainly isn't called the tilt link.....

I'll stick with mine,,,, since I would use it to "tip" and "tilt" my attachment. :thumbsup:

Does a boat tip fore/aft or side-to-side? Are you tipping my boat? Hey! Airplanes pitch up and down and roll side-to-side. Maybe we could call it pitch-n-roll. I think I'll call mine tip-top because that sounds like the best:thumbsup:. . . maybe not.:laughing:

 

[RealJimbo]

Do cows tip?

 

[ovrszd]

Do cows tip?

I've heard they do!!! :thumbsup:

 

[Reg]

Though I know I want TnT, I want to understand it better B4 I go off looking for one. My mount is a Kubota M6040. I have a long unimproved road/driveway that was put in over 10 years ago. Basically, no one has maintained in much. So I bought a box blade, thinking I would resell it (was a deal with a flail) but I have started using it.

Last year I did some work on the road with a cheap rake, but I decided that without gauge wheels, it was minimally effective. The box blade digs up the big rocks and fills in holes, but it too seems to need gauge wheels when attempting to smooth/finish. It also seems to take forever to move stuff from the ditch to the crown, which was why I wanted a back blade. Anyway . . .

I am hoping someone can help me understand how TnT will improve Box blade performance without gauge wheels. Seems straightforward that Tilt will make ditch/crowning simpler, without getting on and off the seat. But how does the hydraulic top link help? Do they have a float position?

IMO the T'nT will be more of a distraction to you while learning to use a BoxBlade EFFECTIVELY.
Once you CAN use it effectively,,,, you won't need to ask whether you need T'nT or how to use it (-:
You may well decide against.

Sure the BoxBlade with the scarifiers down will churn up the rocks - and with JUDICIOUS setting of the top link will fill the holes and dips in.
IMO a hydraulic top link (never mind the side link for now) makes adjustments that are too coarse for leveling and fine grading.

If I tried to write a tutorial on this I would suggest getting the tractor on level hard top (e.g. flat concrete) and lowering the BoxBlade, adjust the top link so that the front blade is about 1/2 inch off the concrete and the weight of the BoxBlade is resting on the rear (smoothing or dragging) blade.
Go out and try it, this should scrape a very thin layer off the top, the rear (smoothing) blade will act as your "gauge wheels". If it fills up too quickly extend the top link by 1/2 or 1 turn - yes, it can be that FINE - point is you will need less "cutting" and more "riding on the rear blade".
IMO hydraulic top links are either too coarse for this - or maybe my hand is too heavy - yeah, that may well be it. I may need flow restricters, but enough about me.
Anyway, for the LEARNING EXPERIENCE do go through very small adjustments of the top link.

I am sure you will get to areas where there is not cutting happening and about that point the box dumps out to empty - well, ~Yeah~ that is a low spot that needs no cutting down. You have probably just filled an edge of its rim, to a point.
Figure where the next high spot candidate is and come into the low spot with another load from that high, etc.

Repeat until done.

 

[teg]

For me, the bottom line... TnT = faster / more work done.

...and I think it would help you learn how to use the BB better since you can make the adjustments quick and easy... and if the BB does not give you the desired results, you can immediately make fine adjustments to it again and again, until you find the correct settings. :2cents: I have a needle valve to make very fine adjustments, so this might be different from some others.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Flow restrictors or needle valves make a HUGE improvement in being able to fine adjust hydraulic top and side links easily, especially the 2" diameter units.

As far as being to course (too fast) a light touch makes that a lot better.

 

[Reg]

Does a boat tip fore/aft or side-to-side? Are you tipping my boat? Hey! Airplanes pitch up and down and roll side-to-side. Maybe we could call it pitch-n-roll. I think I'll call mine tip-top because that sounds like the best:thumbsup:. . . maybe not.:laughing:

Oh, Ohh...
I used to say; pitch, roll & yaw in the "Marine" context.
Recent fun 'n games on sail boards have changed my vocabulary a bit, since it is possible and often desirable to have the hull "rolled" to windward.

I think the T n' T was coined as a trade name by a vendor a few years ago and has crept into common usage.
(the way that Kleenex & Tampax, etc. have)
It might have been Carter... ? or is that Carter n' Carter ?

Anyway, I am still of the opinion that for LEARNING you need to set the top and side links, run 50 to 100 ft, evaluate the results, make SMALL adjustments, try again.
I don't see a HUGE ISSUE with climbing down off the tractor a few times to do this.
I do think you will get lumpy bumpy results if you can't keep your hands off the hydraulics for more than 5 ft at a time (-:

I have a hydraulic top link, but (so far) have resisted the hydraulic side link.
I know I can set an implement parallel to the tractor and with a manual side link I can go out and when I need a crowning or ditching cut I can crank some known number of turns on the side link. I can keep track of that in my head and later recover to parallel with the tractor.
BTW, it is rarely a lot, since on each pass the tractor tips ("rolls" ?) to the last cut.

Now, a T n' T with a GOOD POSITION CONTROL ?
Say; 5,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5 Yeah, THAT could interest me (-:

A few years ago someone did post about how they had built a set up with two hydraulic side links and a way to "zero to both fully retracted" and run them both down/up together from there if needed.

I like the idea of floating a side link, that would get me away from my chain side links that I sometimes use to allow independence between tractor and implement.

 

[OkieDave]

Do cows tip?

Yes, but rarely more than 10%. Cheap bastards....

 

[jenkinsph]

Oh, Ohh...
I used to say; pitch, roll & yaw in the "Marine" context.
Recent fun 'n games on sail boards have changed my vocabulary a bit, since it is possible and often desirable to have the hull "rolled" to windward.

I think the T n' T was coined as a trade name by a vendor a few years ago and has crept into common usage.
(the way that Kleenex & Tampax, etc. have)
It might have been Carter... ? or is that Carter n' Carter ?

Anyway, I am still of the opinion that for LEARNING you need to set the top and side links, run 50 to 100 ft, evaluate the results, make SMALL adjustments, try again.
I don't see a HUGE ISSUE with climbing down off the tractor a few times to do this.
I do think you will get lumpy bumpy results if you can't keep your hands off the hydraulics for more than 5 ft at a time (-:

I have a hydraulic top link, but (so far) have resisted the hydraulic side link.
I know I can set an implement parallel to the tractor and with a manual side link I can go out and when I need a crowning or ditching cut I can crank some known number of turns on the side link. I can keep track of that in my head and later recover to parallel with the tractor.
BTW, it is rarely a lot, since on each pass the tractor tips ("rolls" ?) to the last cut.

Now, a T n' T with a GOOD POSITION CONTROL ?
Say; 5,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5 Yeah, THAT could interest me (-:

A few years ago someone did post about how they had built a set up with two hydraulic side links and a way to "zero to both fully retracted" and run them both down/up together from there if needed.

I like the idea of floating a side link, that would get me away from my chain side links that I sometimes use to allow independence between tractor and implement.

While not position control an easy fix to your adjustment concerns would be an inclinometer mounted on your boxblade. You could see from the tractor seat when it is level and adjust to the specific slope in degrees left or right.

I use top n tilt for grading on a regular basis, being able to adjust on the fly is necessary if you do much grading. Haven't seen many graders lately with hand crank blade adjustments (except in a museum).

 

[jenkinsph]

Flow restrictors or needle valves make a HUGE improvement in being able to fine adjust hydraulic top and side links easily, especially the 2" diameter units.

As far as being to course (too fast) a light touch makes that a lot better.

Seat time helps more than anything imo. Also I don't use cylinders with check valves either, don't need them and you can't feather them as you would plain cylinders.

If you do have check valves you will need the flow restrictors to compensate for the jerky movement caused by them needing to overcome the pressure..

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Steve, two of the biggest reasons that you are able to control your cylinders so well are that
A: you have experience using the top and tilt cylinders and
B: you have 3" dia cylinders.

I have no extra flow control on my 75hp tractor with 17GPM hyd flow with 3" cylinders, and I have no problem controlling those. :thumbsup: My 32hp tractor has 2" cylinders and is almost impossible to fine adjust the tilt cylinder without some sort of flow control. I happen to have needle valves on that tractor and they are basically down as far as they can be without being closed. It doesn't take much fluid to get a 2" cylinder to jump and even a lesser amount to move it at a controllable rate.

For beginners to have a better chance at being able to control their top and tilt cylinders, some sort of flow control is is needed for tractors with 2" dia. cylinders IMO. Helps out a lot with 2 1/2" dia. cylinders and is nice to have with the 3" dia. cylinders.

From what I have seen, all the OEM top and tilt kits have 3" dia cylinders. But the OEM "TnT" sets are not offered for all models and as the tractors get smaller it gets harder to have 3" cylinders for a multiple of reasons. I try to match up the cylinder size to the loader lift cylinder size, so far that seems to be working out.

Just my :2cents:

 

[jinman]

Steve, two of the biggest reasons that you are able to control your cylinders so well are that
A: you have experience using the top and tilt cylinders and
B: you have 3" dia cylinders.

I have pretty good fine adjustment with my DPOCV toplink, but it comes from a very light touch on my remote lever. When hooking my toplink up to an implement, I can make it just creep along by reaching up over the fender and feathering the remote lever. I have 0.030" restrictors inline, but the control comes more from the remote valve being just slightly cracked open. Brian really hit it with "A:" above. I have lots of experience.

Brian, I know you are in the design and manufacture of TnT products. Recently, I'm very tempted to do some experimentation with these CMC Manufacturing products. I have one of these in my Power Hoist bedlift on my Kawasaki Mule and it seems bulletproof. Check out the specs for the various units at the bottom of the linked page. The basic power units go for around $375 retail. I'm not sure of wholesale pricing.

The nice thing about these are that you gain the strength of true hydralics in an electrical controlled unit not requiring remote hydraulics. They're also pretty small and you don't have to allow room for hose fittings. These have been used as trim actuators on boats and are very strong and reliable even in the marine environment. These actuators are not fast, but they would be perfect for TnT. I don't think they would work well for powering a grapple, but for TnT, they should be viable product for a turnkey setup less than $600 with no added hydraulics to the tractor, making them even more flexible.

 

[Fallguy1000]

Skimmed the replies and it seemed to me the biggest problem is uniformity of aggregates.

I can't contribute to the TnT, but when they grade good roads, they don't deal with a large variation in agg.

I recall going 25 miles down a road in Ontario several years in a row with large variation and it gets pretty bad after a few vehicles.

Can't put lipstick on a pig and make it look good enough to kiss.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Skimmed the replies and it seemed to me the biggest problem is uniformity of aggregates.

I can't contribute to the TnT, but when they grade good roads, they don't deal with a large variation in agg.

I recall going 25 miles down a road in Ontario several years in a row with large variation and it gets pretty bad after a few vehicles.

Can't put lipstick on a pig and make it look good enough to kiss.

I agree to some extent. When going over what is a good road that does not have a lot of, or sharp curves in it, very little adjustment needs to be made. But adjustments should often be made at intersections because the intersecting road will often go off at a different slope or angle.

When dealing with what I call a normal private road, one that is made with the surrounding materials and not bought and hauled in from another source, it seems like a lot of those roads have a higher maintenance schedule and typically will require more implement adjustment as the road gets graded.

 

[Redneck in training]

T and T allows you to perfect your adjustments that you wouldn't otherwise make because it is too much hustle to get on and off the tractor and tweak it. It also helps you make adjustments when the condition changes.