Help choosing a welder

[canoetrpr]

This has been an interesting thread.

While comparing Lincoln welders at the local Lowes I noticed that the input current on the tombstone 225 AC arc machine was 50 A while the input current on the Lincoln 180 Mig/Flux core (also a 230 volt) was only 20A.

My workshop has only only 40A coming in. I imagine that my best will be to get a Mig machine (one day when the $$$$ allow it!)

What do you guys think of the Lincoln 180 for a hobby farm workshop for working around the tractor and implements and other general farm stuff? I doubt I seem myself tackling anything larger than 3/8" think and I'd really like to be productive with as little a practise as possible.

 

[Soundguy]

Remember.. the 50A is a max rating... just because you have a welder that can weld at 225a.. don't mean you have to.. I do most of my stick welding between 90a and 120a output.. that's less than 20a input current..

soundguy

 

[canoetrpr]

yeah... that makes sense. Sounds like I would be fine either way. Any clue on how much quicker it would be to be productive for a newbie with a AC/DC arc welder vs. mig?

One way or the other (Arc or Mig), I've decided that when I do get a welder, I'll get a 230V outlet put in my workshop. No point limiting myself to one of the smaller mig units.

I'm going to keep my eyes open at the equipment auctions this spring. A new AC/DC Lincoln 225 is $630 or so. The Lincoln mig 180 is about $700. Sounds like a purchase to plan for on a shopping trip to Buffalo. I imagine prices are a bit better in the USA?

 

[xlr82v2]

Canoetrpr,

I'd still recommend the stick welder. It's much better for heavier steel 1/8" and above than even the 180 MIG (although for 1/8", the 180 MIG will be fine, but you'll be getting close to it's limits), and once you learn Stick, then going to MIG will be a cakewalk. Stick works much better on painted/rusty/dirty metal than MIG... MIG has to be CLEAN, CLEAN CLEAN... which is really hard to do at times. People who do FCAW (flux-core, gasless) with their MIG machines say it works on dirty metal, but then you're still limited by the power output of the machine. MIG also doesn't usually work so well outdoors (the wind outside will blow your shielding gas away... and it just doesn't work when that happens!) No such problem with Stick.

I learned Stick first (when I was a little kid, dad taught me how to make metal stick together when I was old enough to strike an arc), then I got myself a MIG (Lincoln SP175+) a few years ago for welding thin sheet metal.

My recommendation is this: If you predominantly plan on welding heavier steel (making tractor implements, etc...) go with a Stick machine. If you plan on welding mostly thin sheetmetal (car fenders, artwork, etc) go with the MIG as your first machine. Either is going to take a lot of practice to get proficient with and make sound welds. Stick will make sound welds that don't look so pretty... MIG will make pretty welds that are not sound at all. There's no way of getting around practicing... that's why welding is a skilled trade in the job market, it's a skill that has to be learned with time and experience. A $450 AC/DC SMAW (Stick) machine will weld 1/2" steel in a single pass. To get a MIG with that same capability you're looking at spending $1500-$2000+. So you can see that price wise, there's a big disparity in thickness capability per dollar.

If you decide to go with stick, and are looking for an AC/DC machine, I'd recommend the Hobart over the Lincoln... it has a better DC output than the Lincoln, but it usually is just a few $'s more in price, but I think it's worth the difference. If you decide to go with an AC only machine, then go with either Hobart or the Lincoln, whichever you get the better price on... they're both bulletproof machines. From what you stated, you should be able to get much better prices here in the states...

 

[canoetrpr]

Hmm. When the specs on the 180 said it could do 1/2", I figured they meant in a single pass. Guess they would have said this if this is what they meant

Sure sounds like AC/DC stick is the best ticket for general farm use around implements and tractors.

Lincoln machines are not hard to get a hold of. The AC/DC version is carried by TSC. Hobart seems to only be available at specialty welding shops. Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC seem to be available also here. The price is similar to the Lincoln.

 

[Soundguy]

A good ac/dc stick like a hobart stickmatexl235ac/180dc can be had for around 400$.. or could be last year anyway... that's pretty cheap.. and with that power available.. you can weld some big honkin metal.. with lots of options.. IE.. you can change out electrodes for different jobs.. and in a pinch.. a high current ac setting with a 1/8 6011 rod can be used to make a strong ugly repair on a piece of rusty painted metal on some farm implement in half the time it would take you to get the piece cleaned up and buffed down for the mig to make a good bead... add a little wind or some light rain to that and the mig beciomes almost useless with much preparation and mitigation like wid shields and a canopy...

soundguy

 

[patrick_g]

canoetrpr, None of your choices for a welder will work well without your laving to practice and to use the feedback of your practice to modify your approach. Just doing a lot of welding will not make you an acceptable welder. Reading, practicing, and trying to diagnose the results so as to make corrections to your technique can work but isn't always easy.

Getting a good coach to help you learn the RIGHT WAY or better yet taking some classes will get you way ahead of where you will be on your own.

If you were debating which sort of piano to buy (baby grand, grand, upright, spinet, etc) what difference would it really make if you had never played before and skipped the lessons and just went at it by yourself? Do you expect you'd be making good music after just plinking around for a while?

Anybody can make sparks and melt metal but to produce useful (safe and good holding) welds is not trivial.

Pat

 

[canoetrpr]

Now if it is really like playing a piano, I might as well give up before I start. I couldn't play a musical instrument if my life depended on it.

 

[xlr82v2]

canoetrpr, None of your choices for a welder will work well without your laving to practice and to use the feedback of your practice to modify your approach. Just doing a lot of welding will not make you an acceptable welder. Reading, practicing, and trying to diagnose the results so as to make corrections to your technique can work but isn't always easy.

Getting a good coach to help you learn the RIGHT WAY or better yet taking some classes will get you way ahead of where you will be on your own.

If you were debating which sort of piano to buy (baby grand, grand, upright, spinet, etc) what difference would it really make if you had never played before and skipped the lessons and just went at it by yourself? Do you expect you'd be making good music after just plinking around for a while?

Anybody can make sparks and melt metal but to produce useful (safe and good holding) welds is not trivial.

Pat

Pat,

That is profound. That's the best way to put it that I've ever seen, best analogy I've seen on this subject, ever!! Period.

Mind if I use that at times?

 

[patrick_g]

Brian, I live in a world of analogies and any you like are free for the using.

canoetrpr, Sorry if I struck a "bad note" with you but welding is a skill that requires a little hand eye coordination and the ability to do more than one thing at the same time. For example... You should look at the puddle of molten metal NOT the arc but you have to constantly adjust the arc to maintain the conditions to keep a proper puddle which requires a little manual dexterity. In addition you should be listening to the sound of the arc for feedback on rate of feed of the stick and rate of forward travel information in addition to the puddle's contribution to feedback you need to adjust the rate of forward travel.

Sure looks easy when the good ole boy with the knack does it, like it was easy as slowly drawing a line with a crayon. It is not the same skill set as a musician but it is just as demanding if you want your welding to be right.

Warning, more analogy: Anyone can pick up a set of sticks and start flailing on a drum or set of drums, even deluding themselves, thinking that they are OK drummers but in reality I guess not all God's children have rhythm. Having been a drummer with experience in several genres of music (Jazz, Rock, Classical, Martial) I can promise you not everyone gets it right. Same story with a welding machine, Anybody can put a stick in the electrode holder and "go for it" but not everyone does all that well but most who "get it" do so only with lots of practice and the ability to critique themselves and look for what to do to get better.

Again, a coach or a class will get you boot strapped much faster with fewer bad habits to have to unlearn. Find a good welder and make a deal for some lessons. Do be advised though that not every good welder is a good teacher/coach.

I don't intend to make welding sound impossible for any but us members of the priesthood as that is NOT the case. Anyone with the guts to stick with it (pun intended) should be able to learn to weld mild steel down hand good enough to be useful and go beyond that level with practice and hopefully good coaching.

Pat

 

[mojoinco]

You can do a pretty good job with a cheap used AC stick machine. Some 6011 rod for base passes and rusty metal. Other rods (7018, 7014) for other purposes (fill, certain positions). The welding machine/supplies manufacturers make pretty well priced books on the subject.

I was around the mechanical services guys from the regional Cat dealer and they were welding seriously thick steel with a mig machine -- but running flux core wire so that they had plenty of protection in the event of occasional wind. I don't know what polarity they were using (opposite polarity for each method).

I started out with an AC box. Still have one (was a Dayton, now Monkey Wards). Paid $40 for one, $75 for the other. Divorce in between. Also eventually bought a mig (20 amp 115vac unit). It wore out, and I with newer wife have 208 in my shop. Now have a private label of the Hobart Handler (Weldmate?). Did notice that Hobart mig is a lower price point than the Miller.

You will need oxy-acetylene as well. I took community college / trade school classes years ago. Still remember just a little bit of it. Might be the best option, as you get to use nice industrial machines.

 

[patrick_g]

I agree with everything mojoinco said. In addition, just about everything you can do with the cheap AC machine can be done a little better with DC for a few more bucks. I've seen several folks with AC-DC machines and rarely see any of them in the AC position.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

Got a question for the welders. For single pass penetration.. will dc 180 do everything AC 235 will do?

soundguy

 

[xlr82v2]

Assuming that you're using the same electrode... no. Amps are amps, and 235 trumps 180, even though one is AC and the other is DC. If you're going to be welding the thick stuff and want to do it single pass, you'll have to switch the machine to AC to get the higher amps. The arc won't be as smooth, but it still works fine.

 

[Sully2]

Assuming that you're using the same electrode... no. Amps are amps, and 235 trumps 180, even though one is AC and the other is DC. If you're going to be welding the thick stuff and want to do it single pass, you'll have to switch the machine to AC to get the higher amps. The arc won't be as smooth, but it still works fine.

Thats the way I understand it!

 

[Sully2]

Got a question for the welders. For single pass penetration.. will dc 180 do everything AC 235 will do?

soundguy

But the next question is....how often do you NEED to run even the AC side at 180 amps output? ( didnt say run it there..asked NEED to run it there!)

 

[xlr82v2]

I dont' know... I do know that I've never had a need to. ~150 amps I think is the most I've EVER had my machine or any buzz box that I've used for that matter, up to. That's getting pretty warm!

 

[patrick_g]

The minority report:

"Amps is amps? Not really. DC + or DC - is not interchangeable either. With AC, half of the power is DC+ and the other half is DC - (Straight or reverse polarity)

Penetration, electrode melting, and other arc characteristics are NOT THE SAME for DC+, DC-, or AC. (Note some electrodes are not "all mode")

If the RMS arc voltage were held constant and the amps were held constant and the same in each of the three cases, then the Kw of heat generated (Btu) would be the same and the electric meter would spin the same BUT the arc characteristics and the bead produced would not be the same. The technique used to produce the best quality weld would not be the same either. (Rod selection could be involved as well.)

Sometimes these differences are quite significant and sometimes not. Ignoring them or being ignorant of them may simplify your approach but randomize or otherwise degrade your results.

Pat

 

[rebb]

Polo,

if you're still following this thread, i took i don't know how many welding classes at a jr. college some years ago; was working at a job negotiating contracts which had lots of metalwork in them, and wanted to understand the details. found out i liked it...was amazing to me to make that flame from the oxy/acetylene run a puddle of steel; the lathe and mill class i took made me even more intersted....so i had a number of hours of production time and blueprint reading. burned a lot of rod; made my own home welding table, and a whole bunch of other stuff, trailer hitches, boat trailer attachments, tool repair, workbenches, ladder hangers, small tractor parts, mounts for a lathe and mill...you name it, i messed with it. did it all with an oxy/acet rig and a lincoln ac/dc. then i got kinda nutty and needed to weld some stuff in my workshop in the house, and bought a little cheap 100 volt stick welder from northern tool. i use that dang thing more than i use the lincoln now...it'll weld 3/32" 6013 like a champ, or 1/16" for light metal, like a spot weld pattern; you got to be ticklish striking the arc, but i welded a 'sling blade' to its handle tonight. got tired of the ever loosening nuts and bolts on the dang thing...won't come off now...lol!

two ways to learn welding; get the tools recommended by the folks here, some scrap metal and a used welding book from amazon; burn a box of sticks, and a few grinding wheels, and, in a year, you'll be doing good work if you stay at it; or take a couple of night classes like i did, and you'll get good fairly quick (if you have an insructor like tony holmes, as i did-he was great).

i got a porter cable portable bandsaw; it is the cleanest, straightest, least cleanup way to cut tubing and small stock i know of; not a lot of grinding to clean up for welding after the cutting...i would recommend it or the milwaukee, if you want a portable outfit. i have fixed some friends' stuff with a small generator or large extension cord, the 110 welder, the bandsaw, the grinder and a makita grinder with a wire cup brush on it. get some useful return favors for this work...like a pan of brownies from one guy's wife the other night (yum!)

have fun; i still just love making that puddle flow just remember, them sparks is hot, and the metal is even hotter...wear gloves, keep your shirt collar closed, no synthetic clothing (burn the c out of ya), and keep a fire extinguisher handy....i got a nice leather apron that buttons up the front to my neck; got tired of burn marks on my chest and arms...worth the money, unless you're a *********.....and don't weld no galvanized junk without a fan blowing-it might kill ya....makes a deadly gas...

hope this helps some; i really enjoy welding...it takes my whole attention and time flies by....
rebb

 

[xlr82v2]

The fumes from welding galvanized won't kill you... but they surely will make you quite sick if you inhale too much of them. The fumes are not deadly... however you may WISH you were dead.

Just don't want to see things OVER dramatized...