Help choosing a welder

/ Help choosing a welder #81  
Brian,

all i 'know' is what my welding instructor told me. he said he had been inside a big galvanized tank doing repair, and he woke up in the hospital. for me, i have always, therefore, seen to it i had the best ventilation i could get if i welded anything galvanized. you may be right; i don't know, and i'm NOT going to find out. :) someone has that signature line here that i think is great 'some learn by reading, some by observation, and some have to pee on the electric fence'...i have never been one to have to pee on the fence very often :) surely don't have to do it twice :)
rebb
 
/ Help choosing a welder #82  
xlr82v2 said:
Assuming that you're using the same electrode... no. Amps are amps, and 235 trumps 180, even though one is AC and the other is DC. If you're going to be welding the thick stuff and want to do it single pass, you'll have to switch the machine to AC to get the higher amps. The arc won't be as smooth, but it still works fine.

Since I only weld with a mig I wont be able to answer this from the perspective of what the different kind of rods will do like Pat g did. I will point out however that amps are not amps. DC amperage is exactly what the specs call for it to be. However AC amps are usally figured peak to peak since AC curent is in a sine wave then at any one instant of time the amperage will be less than 235 excpept during the peak of the sine wave it will be 235 amps (60 times a second) The average current in ac would be the RMS current which is found by taking the peak 235 amps and multiplying it by .707 which gives you 148.47 amps if that helps you with your question any.
 
/ Help choosing a welder #83  
Actually.. 'average' and 'RMS' are different calcs. Remember.. 240/120v are 'RMS' measurement already. To see the real votlage on your wall plug you need to get a peak reading volt meter.. or do the calc.. ( probably closer to 170 off hand.. )

soundguy
 
/ Help choosing a welder #84  
Thomas (Gemini) and Sound guy. Actually, the average voltage of a sine wave is ZERO although the average power is not since E squared over R is always positive in sign so the positive and negative alternations both produce positive power.)

I believe welder current specs are typically given in RMS (root mean square or DC equivalent) so there is no need to manipulate the ratings to adjust for waveform.

Thomas, what you said would be completely true if the welder specs were given in peak to peak but I don't believe that to be the case.

Even the MIG units typically have a means of changing between straight and reverse polarity (stinger has to be set to + or - depending on the wire in use. You need to swap polarity when you change to aluminum.

I hope the OP is not confused by out technical nitpicking.

Pat
 
/ Help choosing a welder #86  
Guys,

This technical nitpicking ONLY serves to confuse ANYBODY who is not familiar with the part of electricity that can't be observed without an oscilloscope. Myself included.

When I said "amps are amps", I did so from the perspective of the guy (or gal) holding the stinger running a bead joining 2 pieces of steel. I can assure you, that although the arc characteristics are a little different, overall performance and results with a buzzbox running a 1/8" 6013 electrode (for example) set at 130 amps DC are quite similar to those obtained with the box set at the same amperage level running AC current. Go fire up your buzzboxes and try it for yourself!! Tell me I'm wrong!! We're talking about making 2 pieces of steel into one here, with a good, sound weld. Not, "well, I've got steel part "A" here, which I intend to join to steel part "B". I've got my machine set on AC current, which, by it's nature, has a RMS of...." bullcrap.:mad: I guarantee that if you follow the advice offered by Gemini and weld at 140 amps DC, then set the machine to AC and set it to 235 amps because of what Gemini said, you'll be in for quite a suprise!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::(

Introducing all of this hyper-technical babbling into the discussion started by the OP serves absolutely no purpose other than as an avenue for those engaging in it to attempt to do a little "techno-snobbery" and self-inflation against whoever. It truly serves no other purpose!!! If you can explain how it does positively contribute to the OP's concerns/questions, without confusing the overall topic of this thread or anybody reading it, really, I'm all ears.

So, in order to prevent this in the future, please keep your replies oriented from the perspective of the workshop, not from the laboratory. We're welding, guys, not building transmitters or whatnot... so please, let's keep it in that perspective.
 
/ Help choosing a welder #87  
xlr82v2 said:
Guys,

This technical nitpicking ONLY serves to confuse ANYBODY who is not familiar with the part of electricity that can't be observed without an oscilloscope. Myself included..

We aren't nitpicking.. we are asking questions. My question in particular was asking about penetration. I'm primarilly a AC welder.. i have access to an AC/DC machine.. but don't use it.. I have welded Mig.. which is DC.. but compairing mig to stick is not an apples to apples deal.. i was looking for a DC stick to AC stick comparison.. plus a little o fthe underlying principle in why/what where.


xlr82v2 said:
I've got my machine set on AC current, which, by it's nature, has a RMS of...." bullcrap.:mad: (..

It's not BC.. it's a technical discussion that falls within the topical nature of this thread.. it's completely germane to the topic being discussed. Just because you find it to be BC.. doesn't mean all the rest of the members of this board do.

xlr82v2 said:
Introducing all of this hyper-technical babbling into the discussion started by the OP serves absolutely no purpose other than as an avenue for those engaging in it to attempt to do a little "techno-snobbery" and self-inflation against whoever. It truly serves no other purpose!!! If you can explain how it does positively contribute to the OP's concerns/questions, without confusing the overall topic of this thread or anybody reading it, really, I'm all ears. .

This is by no means hyper-techno bable.. this is plain 1st year high school electronics 101.. E=IR type stuff...

If you don't understand it.. that's fine.. but please don't insult those of us that do. Frankly.. your 'snob' comment is rude. This is a technical discussion after all.. you don't supose some technical terms and concepts might actually come up do you?!?

xlr82v2 said:
It truly serves no other purpose!!! .

No purpose? perhaps none that you are aware of.. I'll agree to that.

xlr82v2 said:
So, in order to prevent this in the future, please keep your replies oriented from the perspective of the workshop, not from the laboratory. We're welding, guys, not building transmitters or whatnot... so please, let's keep it in that perspective.


If you don't like it here, why don't you go start your own board and set your own rules. Or.. do like everybody else does.. if you don't like or understand a thread.. just skip it and go to the next one. No one has forced you to reply to this thread... If a few electronic words make you uncomfortable.. just skip this thread... it's no biggie.. but please don't insult others.. or throw down your own rules on who can or can't reply to what thread.. or how the reply needs to be framed. that's for the mods and admins of the board.. not us.

soundguy
 
/ Help choosing a welder #88  
wushaw said:
You might as well just get the AC/DC stick to be able to.

1. weld easier on DC
2. have more choices for whatever your welding.

My advice also. I have a Hobart Stickmate AC/DC welder that works great ($350 from Tractor Supply).

Welding isn't difficult. It just takes practice. My biggest challenge was holding the gap steady at 2-3mm. Mostly a matter of hand-eye coordination. After you burn 5-10 lb of 6011 rod, your muscle memory will start to take over and holding the gap and getting a decent bead will become easier.

Get yourself a good welder's jacket and gloves. I like to wear a hood (aka balaclava) rather than a cap to make sure I don't get spatter tossed into my ears or down my neck. I have a $50 autodarkening helmet from Harbor Freight that works fine.
 
/ Help choosing a welder #89  
Ditto on the jacket. I used to use an old denim jacket.. but finally upgraded to a nice flame retardent green material jacket with high collar, and leather sleaves.. that and some long cuff gloves and a good helmet and boots or shoe protectors and you are good to go.

soundguy
 
/ Help choosing a welder #90  
Sound Dude, Thank you so very much for your point by point comments and their obviating my need to make similar but less pleasant ones on that topic.

I good friend of mine, a professional welder, had a spark get in his helmet, past his skull cap with backwards bill, and into his outer ear where it burned a hole through his ear drum. He got it fixed but the whole experience was not good. This was wearing the standard approved safety gear. It is not a real likely event but it does happen. I think I want a Nomex balaclava.

When I really get into welding mode, especially using stick rather than MIG, I wear leathers that cover my shoulders, arms, and chest/lower neck. I discovered via an arc burn on my lower throat while wearing everything I thought was needed that the little leather flaps you can attach to the bottom of your helmet will protect your neck from arc burn.

I apologize to anyone who's day was ruined by any of my personal hyper-technobabel and also my condolences to anyone for whom anything more complicated than slip joint pliers is hyper technical and for them indistinguishable from magic.

The difference in welding with AC and DC is not such a fine distinction as to not be noticed by an observant person. The characteristics ARE NOT THE SAME.

Lets conduct a little poll and maybe learn something... Do we have any technically trained professional welders here? If not, do we have folks with access to same?

Given the availability of a welding machine that can provide either AC or DC, when and how often do they select AC over DC and why?

I personally have never seen a pro select AC over DC but maybe my observational experience is too limited or skewed. So lets get more data points.

Why grind on this issue? Someone asked for help/advice. If DC is as I suspect, better in most instances than AC, then good advice would be to go the extra expense and get a buzz box that also supplies DC. If in certain instances AC is to be preferred then the guy will be prepared as the welder will offer both AC and DC. This is not to say that AC doesn't weld OK but what if DC is better enough of the time to warrant the extra cost? Then it is better to advise the guy to go AC/DC.

Food for thought... If DC isn't needed or useful then why supply buzz boxes that are AC/DC? Why would folks pay more to get a feature that is inferior to the AC only machine which is cheaper? So is there a conspiracy among all the major manufacturers of buzz boxes to hoodwink the public into buying "bogus" extra cost features that perform worse than the cheap version? Probably not. Most likely DC offers utility worth the difference or the units wouldn't sell.

Pat
 
/ Help choosing a welder #91  
here is a really good pdf file from Lincoln that talks about the various electrode types, some of their uses, and also what amp range to run them in.

I prefer Miller machines myself, but do have a Lincoln TIG.
 
/ Help choosing a welder #92  
OK you guys, I owe you an apology. I re-read this thread just now, and after reading it today, I have no idea how I read what thought I read yesterday. What I read (or misread) somehow in my mind got taken totally out of context. So again, I apologize for my comments. Today I see that they were totally out of line with what was posted.:( I don't know what else to say.

Let's move on, OK?

Or, beat me more if you must...



The difference in welding with AC and DC is not such a fine distinction as to not be noticed by an observant person. The characteristics ARE NOT THE SAME.
Exactly what I said earlier. The arc characteristics are different, but overall, the end results are similar. I did not say exactly the same, but similar.

Lets conduct a little poll and maybe learn something... Do we have any technically trained professional welders here? If not, do we have folks with access to same?
Yes, my father is a professionally trained welder. He taught me how to weld many many moons ago. I still frequently ask him for advice on making two pieces of metal stick together.

Given the availability of a welding machine that can provide either AC or DC, when and how often do they select AC over DC and why?
With the SMAW (stick) process, AC is almost never selected over DC when welding if DC is available. One exception is when stick welding Aluminum. That must be done with AC. Another time when AC would be selected over DC is when an output higher than the DC capability of the welding machine is required, as I stated in a previous post. Another time when AC is selected over DC is when arc blow is encountered while welding with DC current. Susceptibility to arc blow is a distinct disadvantage to welding with DC current. If you're not familiar with arc blow, I can explain it for you...

Why grind on this issue? Someone asked for help/advice. If DC is as I suspect, better in most instances than AC, then good advice would be to go the extra expense and get a buzz box that also supplies DC. If in certain instances AC is to be preferred then the guy will be prepared as the welder will offer both AC and DC. This is not to say that AC doesn't weld OK but what if DC is better enough of the time to warrant the extra cost? Then it is better to advise the guy to go AC/DC.
Let me dig out and quote from "Welding Essentials, Questions and Answers, Expanded First Edition". It says it all better than I can...
"In general, which is better to weld with, AC or DC power?

DC almost always provides the most stable arc, and more even metal transfer than AC. Once struck, the DC arc remains continuous. When welding with AC, the arc extinguishes and restrikes 120 times per second as the current and voltage reverses direction. A DC arc has good wetting action of the molten weld metal and uniform weld bead size at low welding currents. For this reason it is excellent for welding thin sections. DC is preferred to AC on overhead and vertical welding jobs because of its shorter arc. Sometimes arc blow is a serious problem, and the only solution may be to switch to AC. Most combination electrodes which are designed for AC or DC operation work better on DC."

"Are there any advantages in SMAW to using an AC arc over a DC arc?

There are no particular advantages to using AC over DC in the SMAW process, except the lower cost of an AC welding power supply and a possible way to get around arc blow. Equipment cost aside, AC has no great advantages."
That's what the book says. I'd liken it to an economy car vs. a luxury car. Both will get you to where you are going, but one is nicer to drive than the other. AC will get the job done, but DC gets it done better. I hate to state it like that, because it really makes AC sound worse than it really is. AC isn't that bad at all. DC is just better. Is DC that much better to pay nearly double the price for an AC/DC machine vs. a straight AC machine? It depends on who's buying the machine. I decided it was, and bought an AC/DC machine. My Dad says that if the money is coming out of his wallet, it isn't. He's the professional welder. He says you can still do anything with AC that you can do with DC... DC is just nicer to weld with... more of a "luxury", not a necessity. And, he says that he doesn't weld enough away from work to justify the added expense of AC/DC when AC alone will get the job done.

Food for thought... If DC isn't needed or useful then why supply buzz boxes that are AC/DC? Why would folks pay more to get a feature that is inferior to the AC only machine which is cheaper? So is there a conspiracy among all the major manufacturers of buzz boxes to hoodwink the public into buying "bogus" extra cost features that perform worse than the cheap version? Probably not. Most likely DC offers utility worth the difference or the units wouldn't sell.

See above... Chevy vs. Cadillac basically. DC isn't inferior to AC... but it's an expensive option...
 
/ Help choosing a welder #93  
patrick_g said:
I think I want a Nomex balaclava.

When I really get into welding mode, especially using stick rather than MIG, I wear leathers that cover my shoulders, arms, and chest/lower neck. I discovered via an arc burn on my lower throat while wearing everything I thought was needed that the little leather flaps you can attach to the bottom of your helmet will protect your neck from arc burn.Pat


I agree. i should have added that I usually wear the shoe chaps even when I have boots on, plus a leather apron. I also us ethe strap on neck piece that goes over the jacket / under the helmet to prevent that neck arcburn you mention. A also wear a beani capwith brim under the helmet.. ( but not the full head/ear one like you mention.. ).. On the flip side though.. i wear ear plugs to get away from the crackle and sizzle o f the welder.. and the chipping hammer pings.. and the grinder sound..

Moving to the leather full jacket, shoe chaps, apron, and neck protector from what i used to wear.. which was just a denim jacket and gloves .. well.. it was an entire world of an upgrade...

havn't had an arcburn since..

soundguy
 
/ Help choosing a welder #94  
Soundguy, EAR PLUGS???? I like to be able to hear the sound of the arc and think it is yet another source of feedback (maybe I need all the help I can get.) I do have to mess with my ear protection more though, swappiing back and forth.

I have the shoe covers but don't usually use them. I did learn to wear pull-on boots instead of lace-ups, especially Wally World lace up sneakers.

Funny (well, wasn't funny then) but the worst foot burn I ever got was not from welding but was soldering. I was repairing some guys stereo, sitting at a table barefoot except for flip-flops I had a big ball of solder on my Weller two speed gun and as I moved to shake it off into an ash tray it fell off prematurely and went between the two smallest toes, lodged there, and cooked me a bit. The guy waiting for his stereo says, "do you smell something cooking?" I reached down with my needle nose pliers and pulled out the solder ball and said, "yes!"

It has taken me a while but I am slowly getting around to the idea that it is better to put on the protective gear, even for just a little welding as to do otherwise is just playing Russian Roulette and not being burned every time doesn't mean it is safe. Keep doing it and you will regret it.

Pat
 
/ Help choosing a welder #95  
BTDT on the soldering.. I have a triangle shaped scar on the back of my right hand.. been there 20 years from a huge glop of solder that fell of a gun.. come to think of it.. think it was a weller as well.

I wear the ear plugs because I have really-really good hearing.. I'm one of those people that can hear a ceiling fan in another room running.. or faint noises outside will wake me up.. etc.. plus I have to make a living off my ears... Thus.. when shooting, weldiong.. hammering / grinding or running my tractor.. I have muffs or plugs in..

I work with too many people that are practically deaf due to not protecting their hearing.. to not protect my own. A little more feedback onthe welder wouldn't be too bad.. but at my (low) level of skill.. i doubt it would help much. :rolleyes: ;)

soundguy
 
/ Help choosing a welder #96  
Soundguy, I am definitely PRO hearing protection and am jealously guarding what I have left. The sound of the arc is not THAT loud.

I used to hear a bit over 21,500 in one ear and about 20K in the other but no more. I used to be able to hear the bats echo locating bugs and I could hear the ultrasonic burglar alarm systems. Too much unprotected noise exposure and many years later I have a lot of hi freq loss and tinnitus.

Pat
 
/ Help choosing a welder #97  
True the arc isn't that loud.. but when I burn rods.. I also do lots of grinding and chipping... I generally don't like to take the time to flip my helmet up, slip on the safety glasses, and then take my gloves off, put my ear plugs in, put the gloves back on, and then chip and grind.

I just flip up the green glass chip and grind.. then flip the green glas down and get back to burning rods. Saves all that time of ear plugs in and out and in and out. Chipping and other 'ping' style sounds deffinately will stay with me for minutes afterwards if i don't wear hearing protection.. My hearing is good and sensitive.. so i baby it... being a deaf sound engineer won't get me real far...

soundguy
 
/ Help choosing a welder #98  
Soundguy, I understand all that. I use an auto darkening helmet. It will trigger on the sparks of a grinder which makes for a bit of a "light show" flashing back and forth between shade 9 and shade 11-14. So I have to raise the helmet anyway to grind (I wear glasses) and with the muffs handy or sometimes I use the ear plugs on a curved plastic yoke, it isn't all that much of a fuss although it would be simpler to do it your way.

If the helmet had a tilt up feature for the auto darkening screen that would be cool but I get by.

Pat
 
/ Help choosing a welder #99  
When I went to NASA soldering class they would not let us wear sandals so I dont have any good burn stories to tell. :(

Although I do have some neat stories about trying to do precision wiring on a ship that is taking 20 to 30 degree rolls.
 
/ Help choosing a welder #100  
Soundguy said:
...
I wear the ear plugs because I have really-really good hearing.. I'm one of those people that can hear a ceiling fan in another room running.. or faint noises outside will wake me up.. etc.. plus I have to make a living off my ears... Thus.. when shooting, weldiong.. hammering / grinding or running my tractor.. I have muffs or plugs in..

I work with too many people that are practically deaf due to not protecting their hearing.. to not protect my own. A little more feedback onthe welder wouldn't be too bad.. but at my (low) level of skill.. i doubt it would help much. :rolleyes: ;)

soundguy

Good hearing??...HA! I can hear the birth of bacteria on a table top.!!:D
 

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