Hayloft is Crashing Down! Help!

[LD1]

Yes. Good picture.

So you are saying that YES they were nailed that way??? The length of the diagonal nails is what is important in that representation. You are basically "toe-nailing" the joist to the header with the hanger being a guide for that toe-nail (as well as adding strength to the connection). FAR too many times, I see shorter nails used because people think that the hanger is all that is needed to make the connection. But the criss-crossed toe nails are VERY important.

If you look at the end of the joist that pulled out, you should see about an inch or more of nail sticking out of the end that should have been nailed into the header. Are you seeing this?

 

[cqaigy2]

One thing I have been wanting to know, and it is hard to describe, but I found a picture.


Were the joists nailed like this View attachment 278242

Good pict.

 

[GPintheMitten]

So you are saying that YES they were nailed that way??? The length of the diagonal nails is what is important in that representation. You are basically "toe-nailing" the joist to the header with the hanger being a guide for that toe-nail (as well as adding strength to the connection). FAR too many times, I see shorter nails used because people think that the hanger is all that is needed to make the connection. But the criss-crossed toe nails are VERY important.

If you look at the end of the joist that pulled out, you should see about an inch or more of nail sticking out of the end that should have been nailed into the header. Are you seeing this?

I understand what you're saying, but I didn't look that close. The nails might have been of appropriate length but I can't say one way or the other. But it wouldn't really surprise me if the nails were wrong. There were other stupid things done. The hangers were shorter than I think should have been used.

As other's here have stated, I sure wouldn't use hangers. I would have used a much stronger carrier system bolted to the posts and have placed the joists on top of the carriers. I probably won't be back there for a week or two.

 

[FredH]

Personally , I Don't Use nails on any of those Joist / Rafter Brackets . Screws Only , Both to the Header and to the Joist / Rafter via the holes in those brackets . Kinda like " Holmes on Homes " . Although I will use a nail gun or palm nailer for some building , Switched to screws quite some time ago , A bit slower sometimes , but I like the holding power .

Fred H

 

[joshuabardwell]

Personally , I Don't Use nails on any of those Joist / Rafter Brackets . Screws Only

Do the screws' weakness in shear compared to nails matter?

 

[Philscbx]

Coming into it late -
but I would of rented the larger Bobcat series where one is protected by sudden failure of joists if they suddenly failed
while it placed beam in place to use full length joist jacks with screw jack on top.

As others said - jacking joists up 1/4" at a time per day lets building members to slowly absorb the change.
4 post jacks in 8 foot span until level.

I've recovered similar damage to homes like this from flooding long term damage.

1/4" steel 6" x 4" steel angle could be altered in for joists to sit on - trimming ends of joists to fit the steel angle in.

I'd still remove the hey load to half height. So building can recover from extreme pressures.

Seeing those joist hangers as the only support - was scary -
I don't allow this type of hanger only building home decks w/o ledger.
I see these hanger only used in other decks build over head on second level of homes - very dangerous after ten years with all the warping / shrinking / snow loads and rusted hardware.

Best part - no one was hurt - it could of been a much different story.
Good job.

 

[bcp]

Do the screws' weakness in shear compared to nails matter?

I found this:
Strong-Drive® SD Structural-Connector Screw

In certain applications screws are easier and more convenient to install than nails, and the single-fastener load values achieved by the SD9 and SD10 exceed those of typical 10d common or 16d common nails, respectively.

 

[joshuabardwell]

I found this:
Strong-Drive® SD Structural-Connector Screw

In certain applications screws are easier and more convenient to install than nails, and the single-fastener load values achieved by the SD9 and SD10 exceed those of typical 10d common or 16d common nails, respectively.

Thanks! I didn't know that. I also am a fan of screws for certain types of construction--not the least because I don't own a nail gun. I'd much rather push a drill all day than swing a hammer, especially at odd angles.

 

[MarkV]

The screws bcp linked are approved but any other type of screw will not pass inspection in my area. Joshuabardwell is also correct that the shear strength is the problem with common screws. You see people using drywall screws or deck screw with joist hangers and they are really asking for trouble.

MarkV

 

[FredH]

The Simpson Hangers that I recently used in my dads shop expansion allow the use of either nails or screws BUT they are specific nails and screws not just common 10D or 16D nails or "Drywall" screws . Matter of facts those Simpson screws shown in the link above were exactly what I used . As I mentioned above though , I don't use screws for everything , I usually plan out my construction , buy supplies accordingly , then build using nail gun with anything between 2" to 3.5" nails , palm nailer or my C3 19.2 volt Craftsman driver . 1 battery drove 96 of the 100 2.5" screws in the box .

Fred H

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hard...Id=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UEOKdnl0kcA

These Screws

 

[MarkV]

Hey Fred, wasn't trying to criticize your choice to use screws, just pointing out to those not as well informed as you that you have to use the proper screws for things like joist hanger if you want to meet code. No offense intended if any was taken.

MarkV

 

[MarkV]

Hey Fred, wasn't trying to criticize your choice to use screws, just pointing out to those not as well informed as you that you have to use the proper screws for things like joist hanger if you want to meet code. No offense intended if any was taken.

MarkV

 

[FredH]

No Offense taken Mark :thumbsup: , Know exactly what your saying . On another note , if one goes to say Home Depot or Lowes and looks at those brackets , there are several " Types " so to speak . These usually range in price from $ .90 cents upwards of $ 6 or more . Why ?? Check the Thickness . Cheaper one's are say 22 gauge while the more expensive are like 16 gauge , ( not actual thickness , just saying you can sure tell the difference when you hold them ) . So I tend to go the more expensive route , especially when I build something that I am going to be walking under .

Fred H.

 

[leonz]

I understand what you're saying, but I didn't look that close. The nails might have been of appropriate length but I can't say one way or the other. But it wouldn't really surprise me if the nails were wrong. There were other stupid things done. The hangers were shorter than I think should have been used.

As other's here have stated, I sure wouldn't use hangers. I would have used a much stronger carrier system bolted to the posts and have placed the joists on top of the carriers. I probably won't be back there for a week or two.

Perhaps the best way is to use several basement support
jacks (the type that you use to support an open span in a
basement to support the upper floor joists at the outer edges
and using a double layer of two by sixes along the entire length
on both sides.

This is not safe condition in any case as the entire floor could fall in
on one side dumping all the hay and possibly causing harm to a horse
or a person.

The time consuming part will be digging holes for sonotubes to pour concrete
to support the posts to support the joists at the ends.

 

[aczlan]

The time consuming part will be digging holes for sonotubes to pour concrete
to support the posts to support the joists at the ends.

The problem is not a lack of strength in the vertical members, it is a lack of support in between them. Probably bolting a pair of 2x12s that are glued and screwed together with a piece of 3/4" ply in the middle to the uprights right under the joists would do the trick.

Aaron Z

 

[GPintheMitten]

My daughter texted me that the Amish barn builder is out there today doing the repairs and reinforcement. It will be at least a week til I get out there to take pics. But Ill give you an update when I can.

 

[LD1]

Looking forward to see how they tackle the repair:thumbsup:

 

[schweizer]

Wow, interesting thread. Wish I had found it sooner. The Amish barn builder will get it right, for sure. I'm in the middle of building my barn so barn threads are always good-reads. It's sort of late to the party, but that whole loft looks underbuilt for the amount of hay (6-7 bales high at the peak) your daughter put in there. I know it's been stated earlier in the thread, but I like calcs, so here goes:

By my calculations, 1 bale is around 18" x 36" floor area & 50-60 lbs --> 60 lbs/4.5 ft2 = 13 lbs/ft2.
At 6 bales high that's 80 lbs/ft2 live load.
Total load = live load + dead load (average 20 lbs/ft2) = ~100 lbs/ft2.

I can totally understand why the 2x10's supporting the loft joists bowed out under that load. The loft decking probably kept them from spreading on the top half, but on the bottom half, where the joist hangers are, the 2x10's just twisted laterally. It's amazing the whole thing was still supported by that conduit and the decking.

On the barn I'm building, I designed for "only" 70 lbs/ft2 in the loft and I used 6x12 glue-lam girders to support 12" wood I-beams (BCI's) 16"OC. The girders are resting on vertically oriented 2x6's bolted to the posts with 3/4" bolts. (True, I did use metal hangers for the individual BCI's.) Example 2/3 down the page:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-building-old-fashioned-appearance-new-5.html

Glad you're all still alive!
Marcus

P.S.: There was a little discussion about using screws for joist hangers. Look at the difference in thickness between most screws (don't know which you're using) and TECO joist hanger nails. TECO joist hanger nails are about 50% thicker than deck screws. Just sayin'. Those Simpson Strong Drive screws are the only ones that I would use personally.

 

[GPintheMitten]

You are building a nice barn, Marcus. The hangers you are using are much better than those used in the barn my daughter is renting.

Your hangers are full height and look like they wrap over the top of the carrier. Not to mention the carriers are hefty. It's good to see someone doing such a good job.

 

[GPintheMitten]

I stopped by my daughters horse barn last weekend. Here's Levi's repairs.