Hayloft is Crashing Down! Help!

[GPintheMitten]

Actually, Sparc, you're right about the cribbing. I went back and looked at the pics. It should have been put up better. But now the 6x6 is supported on more stable footing.

 

[blueriver]

Something allowed for the "spreading" in the first place?? What allowed that? Something had to give somewhere on the side walls to allow them to spread or did the weight put such a bow on the floor joist to allow the end to come out of the hanger?

 

[Domush]

Something allowed for the "spreading" in the first place?? What allowed that? Something had to give somewhere on the side walls to allow them to spread or did the weight put such a bow on the floor joist to allow the end to come out of the hanger?

That's what I've been waiting to hear about. Either the headers bowed out from lack of lateral support or the joists bowed down, making them too short for the span. If the headers bowed out, then making sure there is proper lateral bracing is the important task, here.

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[GPintheMitten]

I'm not exactly sure how the forces worked to bow the rim carriers out or what actions started first then next then next. And for the correction, it may not matter much, but I'll speculate based on my observations in a minute.

But as to the correction, once the caved joists are fully jacked back up, the contractor is going to bolt 2x16 glue lam to the barn posts (12' o.c.) on a plane that will be under the joists, so as to no longer rely on the joists hangers or the existing carriers alone. In addition, he will run supports up to the carriers from the stall posts that form the opening for the stall doors to help stiffen and support everything.

Now, here's my speculation about the existing carriers and failure. Mind you the carriers were made up of one 2x8 and one 2x10, nailed to the inside of the posts spanning 12'. I believe they first bowed down, possibly enough to lengthen the middle joists space beyond the length of the joists or at least without enough bearing surface to hold. Once one joists drops, it would act against the hanger, pushing it and the carrier outward, then causing, the 2 neighboring joists to slip off the hangers because of the ever expanding span. This would continue outward from the center until it progressed closer to the posts which did not allow further expansion of the span.

Then the outward and downward motion stopped and was supported be the plywood nailed to the joists and somewhat supported by a run of large (1.25"?) Conduit that had a 90 degree bends down to boxes which formed an arch of sorts.

There may have been a different sequencing, but that is my guess based on my observations.

 

[Domush]

Ignoring the danger and costs, it is pretty beautiful to consider the delicate dance which is building design. Everything relying on everything else so completely. it's a perfect embodiment of how working together accomplishes so much more than each working alone.

Inspiring.

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[GPintheMitten]

Yep, and it is the weakest link failing that causes the next weakest link to fail, and so on. That's why the average guy needs to acquire some knowledge before he slaps something together. You can make it look good and hold without a load, but that's not the whole story

 

[woodlandfarms]

It was mentioned before but was it screwed or nailed? I never knew this until recently but joists cannot be screwed by code due to shear stress.

 

[LD1]

If the "rim board"/headers werent nailed to each-other about every foot, and mearly just nailed at the posts, there was very little resistance to them bowing out. A 2x10 over a 10 or 12 foot span dont take much to bow out in the 2" direction. And the second board would add little strength to that if they werent "laminated" to each other.

The beam UNDER the joists so it dont have to rely on hangers is how it should have been built in the first place.:thumbsup:

 

[dave1949]

Your landlord sounds like a great guy. In a sane world he should want to handle the rebuilding, he's the one who will live with it. The Amish fellow is probably thinking "those English don't know how to build." :laughing:

When it is rebuilt correctly, the loft should add a lot of structural strength to the building, loaded or not. And it really isn't going to be expensive to put right. Nobody got hurt, a little excitement, a little sweat, it gets fixed, the way life should be.

 

[joshuabardwell]

You touched on a very good point. Whatever repairs you make will shift liability to you for any future issues. You do not want to take liabilty for the structure in anyway. I would remove the hay and allow the building owner to direct any repairs that should be made. Even bringing the loft back to the original condition may shift liability to you as you have no idea what effects the collapse had on all the other joist hangers, etc. I probably worry over the smallest of details but as an engineer have to be extremely carefull about liability, project control, etc. and the possibility of future litigation.

This is really good advice, and I suggest that you follow it. If it was your barn, and you repaired it, that would be no big deal. Liability is pretty much on you anyway, unless the barn is brand new and still under warranty or something. If you're a renter, I would not perform a repair this major, unless I was a bonded and insured professional. Let the owner handle the repairs.

 

[GPintheMitten]

It was mentioned before but was it screwed or nailed? I never knew this until recently but joists cannot be screwed by code due to shear stress.

They were nailed. None of joists hangers came away from the rim joists/carrier. None of the nails sheered.

 

[GPintheMitten]

I was very relieved at how the landlord responded to everything. I could not have asked for better.

It was a bit nerve racking the last few days, but I'm extremely grateful that no one got hurt and that the failure wasn't worse.

I'm also extremely grateful for all the support and wise advice from you all. Thank you.

I'll post back in a week or two hopefully with pics of the new improved loft structure.

 

[gengine]

Yes, please post back with updates! as said, that wasn't built for that kind of weight, although most people wouldn't recognize that, especially if there had been hay there in the past. The joists should have been sitting on headers, sitting on the posts, with cross bracing every 4'. The hurricane hangers aren't worth the steel they are stamped from, IMHO. I'm very glad nobody got hurt.

 

[LD1]

One thing I have been wanting to know, and it is hard to describe, but I found a picture.


Were the joists nailed like this

 

[sdkubota]

The landlord might not be so easy to get along with once the insurance tells him they are not paying for anything. Remain guarded with your words and daughters words.

 

[GPintheMitten]

One thing I have been wanting to know, and it is hard to describe, but I found a picture.

Were the joists nailed like this <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=278242"/>

Yes. Good picture.

 

[GPintheMitten]

The landlord might not be so easy to get along with once the insurance tells him they are not paying for anything. Remain guarded with your words and daughters words.

I understand. We are being cautious.

 

[SPYDERLK]

If the "rim board"/headers werent nailed to each-other about every foot, and mearly just nailed at the posts, there was very little resistance to them bowing out. A 2x10 over a 10 or 12 foot span dont take much to bow out in the 2" direction. And the second board would add little strength to that if they werent "laminated" to each other.

The beam UNDER the joists so it dont have to rely on hangers is how it should have been built in the first place.:thumbsup:

Yes. And its not so much a bow as a twist - outward at the bottom. The downforce is brought to bear well off the center of the header. If fastening had been provided to also make suitable use of the joists as tension members this would not have happened. Hangers fall far short in this area.
larry