Having a Deutz Issue

[woodlandfarms]

So, it has happened again. I stalled out on a steep (say 30 degree slope) face down. Engine will not start.

if it follows pattern it will start after it cools down.

I hear the fuel rail activating (I think, at least I hear a solid click at the engine). So I am stumped. The only thing I have left is a low oil sensor and or oil temp sensor as a culprit.

I don't know Deutz well enough. I noticed that when I stalled the temp went up to over 200 on the meter. when I turned the key. But as I am at an odd angle it could be the oil being thin and a pressure sensor.

Stumped... any help?

 

[Bradlyk]

Wow that is weird..
I never had that issue and I also have a deutz
What model is it?
And do you have any pictures

We will try to help you but me I'm stumped

 

[woodlandfarms]

Its a Deutz 4-1011F series engine. Oil cooled.

I can't find any schematic which shows how the PT Electric system works with the Deutz.

 

[SpringHollow]

The starter/engine turns over?

Have you checked the kill lever which is back near the alternator?

Any chance it is a fuel issue? The opening gets blocked in the tank at 30 degrees when hot? That one is really a stretch.

I can not remember if we have a low oil shutdown or not - could be a bad one.

Might be worth a call to the deutz service center.

Ken

 

[Bob999]

I am wondering if it could be the out of seat sensor? You might try jumpering it to see if it resolves the problem.

 

[J_J]

Well Carl, [ Woodlandfarms ], did you get it started? You might can bypass the oil temp and pressure, but only for a short time. Just enough to get it turned around and level, then check the oil level.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Well, happy (grumble) new year.

I think I found the culprit.

Backstory... I bought the PT from Ken who had it resurrected from an owner who for the most part parted the machine out. It's history is vague (correct me if I have this wrong Ken). The owner bought this 1850 and started a slope mowing service for the state. With under 200 hours the engine blew. The owner at the time got into it with PT and Deutz, and in the end was compensated with a new engine which he replaced. But the machine looks to have caught on fire from the starter relay. The motor cage (PT Hood) has a nasty weld spot there where the cage made contact with the positive side of the battery. I think after the engine went in the guys work slowed down (he had purchased a second 1850 which is Kens) and decided save money and use my PT as a donor machine for his active machine. So, Essentially I have many new items (like an engine and all sorts of fun stuff) mixed in with some really old items (the hoses and some of the wiring).

Now, here is where it gets interesting. My machine does not have either of the following. A seat pressure sensor (do any of the PT's have this?) nor does it have a high temp alarm. I believe that this high temp alarm is on the PT somewhere (anyone care to enlighten me?).

I got into the engine side panel where the electric goes. This area has always been suspect in my book. Too much electric tape and a couple of wires that do not make sense.

In looking at the machine today I think that what has happened is that the previous owner has cut the wires from the temp sensor with alarm feature and has hooked the alarm to the oil pressure sensor (the one that kills the engine).

I have to send this idea to Terry tomorrow, see what he thinks as I spoke to him today and he had no clue what was going on based on my description. Now with this idea in my head we will see what he says.

Carl

 

[woodlandfarms]

Oh yes, I did get it started. Went and watched TV with the wife for a couple of hours (walking up hill to the house from a friggin ravine through blackberries).

Then asked the wife to drive me back to the tractor on the quad. She looked at me like I was from mars (It is in the teens at night). I walked back down the ravine... Hopped on. Turned it over once. Nothing. Turned it over again and it caught immediately.

Went back to the house and complained I had been living in LA too darn long. Wyoming summers are 15 degrees and I should be more used to this.

 

[Bradlyk]

Wow great to know it works


No more problems?
Maybe it was just a overheat and back to normal

 

[MossRoad]

In looking at the machine today I think that what has happened is that the previous owner has cut the wires from the temp sensor with alarm feature and has hooked the alarm to the oil pressure sensor (the one that kills the engine).

Well, that would make perfect sense if it is how you think. Rather than having an alarm going off when the engine gets hot, it kills the engine. Kinda harsh on the operator, though. Good thing you weren't crossing a highway or something like that! :shocked:

 

[ponytug]

Dear Carl,
I'm glad you got into the spaghetti; it's never good to have cut wires and electrical tape hanging around, if you want reliability. While we have different series engines, I've been over my engine manual, and I don't see a high temperature cut out. It would be nice to have one though.

I have the following concern though as a diagnosis; if it is so cold, it would seem that high temperature is unlikely. Could it be that the oil pressure warning light switch is miswired to be part of the run continuity circuit, so if the pressure drops, you lose engine run capability. That would explain also the extended cranking to get the oil pressure high enough to close the circuit and open the fuel solenoid.

I hope that this helps.

All the best,

Peter

P.S. I'm dealing with another manufacturer's engine- where they used white wiring for every single wire in the engine compartment. (!) Makes one appreciate the PT wiring.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Peter, I just don't know. I was thinking it was reading the temp from the head, and that at the sloped angle for whatever reason the oil is not contacting that part of the head so it is reading only the steel temp (250, maybe 300 degrees) and not the oil temp (cooling at 160)

The other thing I did was clean the contacts on the connector. Go figure, the fan blows a ton of crap right across the connectors. Truly some things on this machine leave me scratching my head.

I may order a whole new engine and engin to chasis wiring harness. Start over clean...

 

[ponytug]

Carl-

I doubt that the slope has an effect on temperature. The oil cooling is done by oil under pressure, so unless you are seriously short on oil, there should be enough in the sump to pump around, and provide cooling. If you aren't getting the oil to the top of the cylinder head, I suspect you have bigger fish to fry- like the state of your bearings.

If your engine interconnect is giving you grief, I would think that plugging it in/out a few times would solve the issue.

Have you tried wiggling your cables with the PT running to see if you can stall it out on the level? You do seem to have an odd problem here.

Have you double checked the fuel solenoid? There are folks here who have had problems with them in the past; it seems to be a not uncommon point of failure, and they often fail by sticking, although usually by catastrophic failure, rather than intermittent failure.

All the best,

Peter

Peter, I just don't know. I was thinking it was reading the temp from the head, and that at the sloped angle for whatever reason the oil is not contacting that part of the head so it is reading only the steel temp (250, maybe 300 degrees) and not the oil temp (cooling at 160)

The other thing I did was clean the contacts on the connector. Go figure, the fan blows a ton of crap right across the connectors. Truly some things on this machine leave me scratching my head.

I may order a whole new engine and engin to chasis wiring harness. Start over clean...

 

[woodlandfarms]

Thanks Peter for the info.

I have not tried to re-create this due to the fact that the only steep slopes are a good walk away and generally not accessible accept by dozer. Also, to pull the PT out you have to release the pressure on the tram pump and free wheeling at 30 degrees with 4K lb of tractor scares me pretty bad.

Yeah... their is something funky with the wiring. (anyone have time to take a picture of the engine side of the connector?) But is it the culprit? I do not know. I hear the fuel rail activating, When I stall I get black smoke so it must be getting fuel (not getting enough maybe?) Also the black smoke may be the excess fuel from stalling out in the 1st place.

All I know is if I let it sit, it restarts. That for me is a heat related issue. Also it only does this when face down on a steep slope. So I look at oil as it is the only thing that moves (should move) with gravity.

What I do not get is how does the oil pressure sensor stop a diesel from starting? Anyone know the science? I hear the fuel rail clicking on so what does the sensor stop?

Carl

 

[J_J]

Have you talked with these guys.

I can help you with your Deutz air cooled!!

 

[woodlandfarms]

Thanks JJ Will give that at try

I talked to Terry. Says it makes no sense but that I should replace both harnesses... $158... Maybe some other time...

 

[SwampmanLA]

Different machines but I had a wiring issue with my 422. PowerTrac had wired in an inline fuse from the battery to the ignition stitch. When my 422 would get hot the fuse would lose connection and the 422 would die. I found it by leaving the key switch on and taking a stick and gently moving wires around. When I heard the cooling fan kick in I knew it was a bad connection. I replaced the fuse holder with one of my own, along with soldered connections, and all has been well. PowerTrac is known for wiring issues.

 

[BobRip]

Different machines but I had a wiring issue with my 422. PowerTrac had wired in an inline fuse from the battery to the ignition stitch. When my 422 would get hot the fuse would lose connection and the 422 would die. I found it by leaving the key switch on and taking a stick and gently moving wires around. When I heard the cooling fan kick in I knew it was a bad connection. I replaced the fuse holder with one of my own, along with soldered connections, and all has been well. PowerTrac is known for wiring issues.

I had the same issue on my 422. The connections were loose inside the fuse holder. I replaced the fuse holder.