Tiller Harrows Vs, tillers.

[newbury]

<snip>Deere rocks!

You'll be saying that for a while.

OP - have you talked to the local farmers/deer plotters/Ag center? It might help to find out what they use/recommend.
I don't fully understand the process of vertical migration of basketball sized rocks in frozen soils but I can remember having some garden plots in Vermont that seemed to "grow" the BEST crop of rocks every year. Running my Grandfathers gravely tiller thru one plot picked up big rocks every year, while another plot on a different soil would let us take out the "surface" layer and then the soil was very tillable.

A soil survey may help.

I know my tiller when used properly makes wonderful seed beds, but then most of my land grows trees, not rocks, because it's sandy loam.

 

[jenkinsph]

Frontier discs are made by Monroe Tuffline according to my dealer. I have compared the two brands in my searches and they appear to be similar.

Amco, Monroe Tuffline, Athens and many others have a few smaller discs that you can use with a 5045. Most of the manufacturers list the suggested hp needed to operate their discs. Just a rough guide though, I suggest you select a disc that is closer to matching the upper limit of hp ratings. At 45hp you have to be careful not to go too big.

With small tractors such as what most of the TBN crowd has I think a tiller is a better fit in most cases. I use mine to cut through old pastures with heavy sod and it is slow going but so is a light weight disc. Last year to reduce wear and tear on the tiller I started making two passes with my 6' S tine field cultivator this makes it a lot easier to till. Also I would rather find old junk with the cultivator that is just beneath the surface than the tiller.

Rocks and more rocks
Living in the Rocky Mountains we have plenty of them I make a valiant effort to remove all of them I can find. Plowing uncovers lots of rocks, tillers and discs both clang bang and jump when you encounter them but seem to survive well enough. Tillers with forward rotation climb over them and keep going in most cases and if you do break a tine it is easily replaced with two bolts. Working small fields as I do for my customers I seem to average about 2 tines a year. No real way to quantify it but the point is a tiller seems to handle the rocks better than most expect.

There have been many armchair discussions on tillers vs. discs on TBN but as I see it in my world of small tractors there isn't a significant advantage for either one. A 50 hp compact such as a 4520 or a 5045 will both be limited as to what they can do on a per hour basis. Doesn't seem to be much difference in cost between a good tiller and a good disc either. When you get above 100 hp tractor you can get a better tiller and a better disc, both will turn over more ground per acre, and other implements such as a chisel plow or ripper might make more sense.

My point is that for most of these small light tractors a tiller is a good match since it has no draft load on the machine. Much easier to store a compact tiller than a disc and for me transporting a tiller is much easier than a disc. For large tractors a heavy disc with !00 to 250 lbs. per blade is a good choice but I don't see that being a clear choice for a small home owner with limited tractor and lot size.

 

[vtsnowedin]

F At 45hp you have to be careful not to go too big.

....
When you get above 100 hp tractor you can get a better tiller and a better disc, both will turn over more ground per acre, and other implements such as a chisel plow or ripper might make more sense.

For large tractors a heavy disc with !00 to 250 lbs. per blade is a good choice but I don't see that being a clear choice for a small home owner with limited tractor and lot size.

Ahem!! A 5045F is not a small, compact or limited size tractor. Mine with loader on and Rimguard in the rears weights 7800 plus it wears 300 lbs of ice chains in the winter. It could be a 75HP tractor just by changing the turbo and the injector pump. And my "Small" home adds up to over a hundred acres when you add all the family pieces.

 

[Ted Summey]

The photos below are my tractor with 72" tiller and food plot before planting. We have rocky soil with most rocks baseball size or smaller. My food plot pictured had half a dozen rocks softball sized or a bit bigger along with smaller rocks.

I'm an advocate for a tiller. I've used tillage tools, plows and harrows to prepare tobacco and corn land as well as gardens and food plots. The PTO powered rotary tiller is by far my choice for garden and food plots (I don't raise tobacco or corn anymore). Mine has a slip clutch that I maintain and I keep a few spare tines around at $7 a piece. In the four years I've owned the tiller, I've replaced six tines and occasionally replace broken bolts that hold the tines in place.

Fuel usage for preparation including plowing and disc harrowing is slightly more than preparing a plot with a tiller in my estimation but time is cut in half or less using a tiller.

The only drawback to the tiller is I have run across some soils, once tilled and rained on, turn into a fairly hard packed seed bed.

 

[jenkinsph]

So I'm thinking about spring while the thermometer falls past zero yet again. This spring I want to put in some food plots plus do a better and bigger job on my gardens. I have a two bottom plow but don't have any working harrows. My first thought was to get a set of used eight foot three point hitch harrows. But as I look around there isn't much out there that doesn't need a complete rebuild. I find you can get a new 72 Inch tiller for about $2100. That would do the same job as the harrows and on the old ground gardens make the plow unnecessary. On the food plots I'd still plow it and pick off any rocks I turned up before tilling it.
So I think the limit on a set of harrows is $2000 and considering how simple they are $800 to a $1000 would be more like it.
Any thoughts guys on the advantages or disadvantages between them.

So do you want to till up a few garden plots and your garden or till up 100 acres? I was addressing your first post


Not trying to offend anyone but 45hp with 7800 lbs of tractor isn't that much and leaves less power available to provide the draft needed for a disc at about 5 mph travel speed. Subsequent passes require more hp just to move the tractor across the newly plowed field.

With a tiller all the extra weight isn't necessary and you can use the hp to till the ground. Recognize that ratings for the pto hp are taken with the tractor parked. At 45 hp and 7800 lbs in a plowed field traveling 4 to 5 mph you will be luck to have half of that left to handle the draft load. A tiller moving at 1 mph with the fel removed will have a substancial advantage and can apply more of the hp to turning the dirt.

 

[vtsnowedin]

So do you want to till up a few garden plots and your garden or till up 100 acres? I was addressing your first post


Not trying to offend anyone but 45hp with 7800 lbs of tractor isn't that much and leaves less power available to provide the draft needed for a disc at about 5 mph travel speed. Subsequent passes require more hp just to move the tractor across the newly plowed field.

With a tiller all the extra weight isn't necessary and you can use the hp to till the ground. Recognize that ratings for the pto hp are taken with the tractor parked. At 45 hp and 7800 lbs in a plowed field traveling 4 to 5 mph you will be luck to have half of that left to handle the draft load. A tiller moving at 1 mph with the fel removed will have a substancial advantage and can apply more of the hp to turning the dirt.

Well I mow some of it, cut wood on some of it ,and plow snow on some more of it. Now I'm going to add some food plots but I'll probably have to shoot some deer off them to keep them from eating it all.
. Not having to get a cash crop in the ground on a lot of acres my 45HP tractor will do just fine.
When I was a kid we pulled a six foot harrow with two horses.
Just thought I'd point out that there is a size difference between the compacts and the 5**** series tractors.

 

[jenkinsph]

A 50 hp compact such as a 4520 or a 5045 will both be limited as to what they can do on a per hour basis. .

When I was a kid we pulled a six foot harrow with two horses.
Just thought I'd point out that there is a size difference between the compacts and the 5**** series tractors.

To be clear I meant that both the 4520 compact and the 5045 utility tractors can handle tillage in a limited way. I am well aware of the different tractor sizes and have a fair idea of the capabilities of the various models.

I also remember the old harrows pulled by horses and mules they didn't weigh very much and didn't have much set, still you work with what you have.

If you decide to go with a disc just make sure you select one you can pull at 4 to 5 mph.

 

[vtsnowedin]

To be clear I meant that both the 4520 compact and the 5045 utility tractors can handle tillage in a limited way. I am well aware of the different tractor sizes and have a fair idea of the capabilities of the various models.

I also remember the old harrows pulled by horses and mules they didn't weigh very much and didn't have much set, still you work with what you have.

If you decide to go with a disc just make sure you select one you can pull at 4 to 5 mph.

Having pulled an eight foot double gang with my old 880 42HP David Brown 2wd I'm confident I can pull an 8 footer with the 5045E 4wd.

 

[jenkinsph]

Having pulled an eight foot double gang with my old 880 42HP David Brown 2wd I'm confident I can pull an 8 footer with the 5045E 4wd.

You keep mentioning the width of a disc but other things such as weight/blade, disc blade diameter and set angle all make a difference. Some of the heavy built discs with large blades you could probably pull but may not be able to pull them fast enough to do a good job. You might be able to pull a 10' width disc with 18" disc blades and a low enough weight/blade.

 

[1026mrg]

Vtsnowedin,

We are also in central/north central VT. First tried to hire someone to put food plots in, but no one had the right gear.
Finally bit the bullet a few years ago and got the proper equipment.

We plow all our fields with a Kverneland, 3 bottom, re-settable plow. Tried other methods.. the only way to really break up the soil up here is to start with a good plowing. Our food plots are a mixture of old pastures and fields that we have cleared in the woods. After plowing, a few laps with the disc harrow. We pull an 8' A&B Eagle Flexible Hitch Harrow on the 3 pt hitch. The harrow does a great job of really breaking up the soil and mulching in last years leftovers.

In my limited experience up here, I would not advise using a roto tiller. The rocks will eat it up. Each year brings a new, but smaller, crop of rocks and stones. Even in the fields that were pasture. We go through the fields with a grapple on front when we plow & disk. Try to pick up any errant rocks. After a couple of seasons, got most of the big ones and they were slipping through the root grapple tines, so we got a stone fork with grapple. Basically the tines are closer together. After several seasons of hard use, we have stripped a disk or two. There is no getting around it up here in the hills. That being said, we would have destroyed a roto tiller.

In our limited experience in the hills in Vermont, best results on food plots...
Plow, as many bottoms as you can pull or afford. You should easily handle two or three. We stopped at three primarily for storage, space & maneuverability reasons.
Next, disc it up. It will require more than one pass to get the soil properly broken down, particularly in season one. With the disc harrow, of course,
weight is your friend. I would suggest you consider a harrow with a mix of notched and smooth edged discs.
Level it out.... use your bucket, a roller whatever. For the really difficult spots we use a box blade.
Fertilize and lime, consider another pass with the disc to work in the fertilizer & lime.
Seed and use a cultipacker to get good soil to seed contact.

Most importantly, get your soil tested. Achieving the proper PH, along with the proper fertilizer and preparation, makes all the difference.
Your time & labor are too valuable not to spend the money on lime to get the PH to where it needs to be. A lot of folks will put enormous time and money into food plots and then skimp on, or skip, soil testing and lime.. big mistake.

Sorry about the novel, but since you are close to us, and likely dealing with similar soils, climate etc. thought it may be helpful. Sorry if I harped on things that you already know.

But I would certainly go with a disc harrow over a tiller.

 

[vtsnowedin]

Vtsnowedin,

We are also in central/north central VT. First tried to hire someone to put food plots in, but no one had the right gear.
Finally bit the bullet a few years ago and got the proper equipment.....
.......
Sorry about the novel, but since you are close to us, and likely dealing with similar soils, climate etc. thought it may be helpful. Sorry if I harped on things that you already know.

But I would certainly go with a disc harrow over a tiller.

I't's a good read. I've been through the soil test procedure before. My land needs all the lime you can afford. Six ton to the acre if you want to grow corn. Which I haven't done in twenty five years now. I'm thinking disk over tiller as you suggest but might go with all smooth blades as I think they are less prone to breakage. Also twenty inch disks as they roll up over rocks better then smaller ones.
What have you planted that gave you good results?

You know where rocks like this one are they don't move around much but his little buddies seem to move upwards in a never ending stream. I hate the ones that are just big enough to get wedged between the plow shares.

 

[vtsnowedin]

You keep mentioning the width of a disc but other things such as weight/blade, disc blade diameter and set angle all make a difference. Some of the heavy built discs with large blades you could probably pull but may not be able to pull them fast enough to do a good job. You might be able to pull a 10' width disc with 18" disc blades and a low enough weight/blade.

I'm not going to try to disk up sod with just the harrows so speed is not essential.
About the heaviest eight foot disk made is a frontier DH1396 Which with nine inch spaced 4 mm thick 22 inch blades weighs 1256 lbs. My 3pth will pick up 3000lbs. and 1256 is less then my loader and bucket empty. Don't worry I can pull it if I can find one for less then $4200.
Now a compact Kubota L4200 weighing in at just 3500 lbs. or a Workmaster 55 weighing just 4050 might have trouble handleing that disk as you say but I didn't but a "Compact tractor".

 

[jenkinsph]

Everything seems to be so expensive today, hope you can find a deal somewhere. The more brands you can consider the more likely you are of finding a deal. Here is a link to a Tuffline 3pt disc that is similar to the above.
Agriculture TL43 Series Disc - Monroe Tufline

 

[C4Ranch]

I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a 24-20". I've looked at almost all brands out there and have been impressed with the everythingattachments extreme heavy duty. I don't prefer designs that attach the gangs to frame by taking two sq tubes and welding flat bar stock on top and bottom. ETA's design uses large plates laser with laser cut holes for the Ganges to pass through plus they have screw jacks to adjust angle....
Only thing holding me back is the $2.7k price... You can likely get free shipping.

 

[jenkinsph]

I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a 24-20". I've looked at almost all brands out there and have been impressed with the everythingattachments extreme heavy duty. I don't prefer designs that attach the gangs to frame by taking two sq tubes and welding flat bar stock on top and bottom. ETA's design uses large plates laser with laser cut holes for the Ganges to pass through plus they have screw jacks to adjust angle....
Only thing holding me back is the $2.7k price... You can likely get free shipping.

That whole series looks to be a good value imo. Looks to be a good choice at a fair price.

 

[vtsnowedin]

That whole series looks to be a good value imo. Looks to be a good choice at a fair price.

I enjoyed the video. I wonder if they would build me one with 9 inch spacing and all smooth 4mm disks?

 

[vtsnowedin]

When I first looked at the everything attachments heavy duty harrow my fist question was why they made the axle hangers (if that's the right name for them) L shaped. I would have thought a T shape with triangle gussets welded front and back would be stronger. But watching the video you learn that they are making parts from "formed steel" so the root of the L is not a weld except for the two side edges. Quick to make and perhaps as strong as a T with only two inches of weld each piece.
I definitely need to keep them on the possible list.

 

[jenkinsph]

I enjoyed the video. I wonder if they would build me one with 9 inch spacing and all smooth 4mm disks?

Could not hurt to ask Ted. They did mention in their ad that smooth discs were coming soon.

 

[vtsnowedin]

Could not hurt to ask Ted. They did mention in their ad that smooth discs were coming soon.

I may do that when I get a little closer to spring.

 

[C4Ranch]

For what it's worth, their notched disks are 4.5mm