Glide Shift(GST) vs Hydrostatic(HST)

[Chris in IN]

Vincent as you can see everyone has a different opinion on what is best for them. I have an HST and it is best for me. You need to take the good points from the posts and then drive the GST & HST & see what works best for you. Chris

BTW the JD 4000 series HST's have the turning brakes on the left so you can use the HST pedal & turning brakes at the same time.

 

[Peter]

Not to beat this to death.... regarding HST/Safety. The HST CLEARLY is safer. Someone disputed that by saying "I'm more experienced - I don't make those stupid mistakes". Logically, these two statements have nothing to do with each other. Think about it.

What I was trying to say earlier, Mark embellished in more detail (ok... too much detail? says it all, ".....operators take their foot off the clutch pedal as they were standing up to get off the tractor, only to be thrown back into the seat or across the steering wheel because the tractor was in gear. Why didn't they kill somebody? Only because there was no one there to kill. Pure luck."

Now be honest. Hasn't this happened to all of us? It has to me (more than once) and I've been driving standard transmissions for 30 years now. I should know better. But it was a mistake. So, for what ever arguments we have both pro and con for an HST, safety should not be in dispute.

 

[gordon]

In reference to brake steering one of my tractors has a front end loader and the others do not, but even so that is beside the point. Different people use their tractors in different ways and for many diverse things. There are times when I'm skidding logs and using a tree for a scrape there would be no way to make the turn without brake steering. Yes this is done in four wheel drive, yes this might be hard on the tractor, but thats why I buy Kubota's because they take the punishment. The main reason for the compact is to get into areas that other tractors can't. Another reason for brake steering is at an end row while plowing then you can turn her on a dime or if your getting alittle crossed while plowing a tap on the brake puts you right back on the mark. There are many situations that don't allow a two point turn, so to me brake steering is an important aspect of the tractors preformance not just a mistake coverup. Then again I might be totally wrong in my belief but if that was the case they would mount one brake pedal like you have in your truck instead of two, that surely would be less expensive to manufacture, one pedal instead of two. Like I said many people use their tractors in many different ways and one should use every option to their advantage to make a hard days work easier. Don't mean to sound like brake steering is the best thing since sliced bread---but---Thats my two cents worth on brake steering and some of the advantages of it.
Anyone else use their brakes for other than just stopping?

 

[Bird]

gordon, I suspect most, if not all, of us have used the individual brakes for turning on some occasions. I know I have, but rarely, and the only time I've used the brake for turning in the last 5 years has been either mowing or pulling a hay rake in which case it didn't matter whether I had a geared tractor or HST because I was using the cruise on the HST anyway. It's a nice feature, and perhaps a necessity for some, but not for me. I like having the individual brakes, but I'd rather have a single brake pedal than give up my hydrostatic transmission. I guess it depends on what kind of work you're doing, and I guess that's the reason they make both kinds; different strokes for different folks./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bird

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I use my L35 for moving small parts cars that many times have to be moved with one end off of the ground and the 2 remaining tires fighting the whole process. They'd go all over the place if I couldn't keep repositioning the tractor by pumping one brake so the tractor makes a series of small zig zag movements.

I also push stumps down narrow lanes that are too heavy or dangerous to carry to the fire pit, they tend to want to go their own way without the brakes. When I'd backdragging a bunch of dirt or clearing next to the fence (someday I'll fix it and then start using the BX to mow it) the tractor won't go straight unless a pump one brake (or reduce ground pressure).

Sometimes I have to use the brakes to get around a tree, I've been in a lot of situations where backing up wouldn't help I'm in so tight that I also have to sometimes use the hoe to lift the rear end up and push it sideways. (I'm still waiting for the 10 foot hoe for the BX to arrive!)

I enjoy these discussions/arguments/bloodletting. Wish we all had a cracker barrel to sit on while we're discussin' everything.

I will grant that the HST stops quicker, but I tend to disagree on the productivity/efficiency point. If it's diesel use you are thinking about this L35 works like the proverbial scalded dog all day long for 4 gallons or less. If you are speaking of human movement efficiency, yes less movement, but I believe most guys that have tractors even if they don't admit it, are trying to be their grandfather or someone else's grandfather on the farm. I know there is no real justification for me spending money on new tractors but I did anyway. The old one was still chuggin' Without my GST I'd have to just sit there with my left arm dangling. There's a few holdouts that are still buying stick transmissions in their cars and trucks as well.

As for productivity of the tractor, yes I suppose you might have a point if you were doing loader work 8 hours a day, although I've watched someone who knows more than I use his GST and I know it's possible to do a lot more than I am currently able to. My problem was that to go to an HST required something other than the L35, and that would mean a slow loader, and a loader that only tilts back 50% as much as mine. I may spend time fumbling with my shift lever, while you hit the go-pedal and go, but I've already dumped my load and lifted something else while you guys are still waiting for your loader to catch up. It's screwy marketing I guess, why can't we have the best of both tractors (L35 and L3410 for instance) in a single tractor?

All this being said, I love the HST in my BX loader mower.

If everything I wanted was available I'd have nothing to look forward to! Still waiting for that L48, with HST and buttons on the steering wheel and loader lever to electro-hydraulically operate turning brakes!

Well Mark, et al? What's next...political discussion?

Dig on!

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I actually use the clutch if I want to stop and then I hit the brakes. I have an L35 and the clutch and brake maneuveur is good when pulling out onto roads and the such.

 

[gordon]

Very good description Bird, but a single pedal over the Hydro you must really love that hydro. But that is why they make both. When I'm doing alot of loader work I do wish it was a Hydro instead of a Glide Shift, but both have their strenghs and weaknesses.
The perfect tractor would have an option for both on the same tractor with a selector switch on the dash to go from hydro to glide shift. But then I would really be confused to many buttons and switches to figure out. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I recently participated in the back and forth on the GST/HST and felt that the "foot off now it stops" was not a serious safety advantage, (still don't). In my case it had to be a GST, I had no other choice. I wanted the L35 which I felt had no equal for my uses in the other L series and aftermarket backhoes.

Actually my second choice wasn't a Kubota, it would have been a JD 4600, 2300 lb loader lift, 15.3 gpm hydraulic flow, useable turning brake pedals, easier to use (I think) HST pedals.

One of the reasons I went with the GST was that I have some other property that has a lot of slopes. I wanted a standard transmission so I had the benefit of firm hold on hills. The HST with the engine off will allow the tractor to creep down a hill. I didn't want that. I know the parking brake should be used, I wanted a 2nd source of holding the tractor. Would any of you feel comfortable getting in front of a tractor that is held just be a brake?

I've always used the brake on my older shuttle-shift Ford as the secondary method as it's easier just to throw it in low and reverse. In that position the tractor will NOT move, and the brake just adds a higher measure of security.

Happened to have the L35 GST on a very slight slope. Put it in gear, hopped off. Two seconds later the transmission "released" and it took off and went about 8 feet at a good clip then the ground leveled off. I couldn't believe I had left it out of gear. After some playing I found that I hadn't. The GST is completely worthless holding the tractor, and when it releases it isn't just a crawl like the HST the tractor will haul ass, almost like it's in neutral. You wouldn't be able to get out of the way and the tractor will pick up speed until it hits something.

I probably bypassed the section in the owners manual about parking the tractor, I've always been safe...implements down, in gear, engine off, maybe brake on. It mentions that the GST will not hold the tractor. So that is my error.

It mentions to put the tractor in neutral...YES! It's got an interlock in neutral, right...WRONG! There is no gol danged reason this tractor does not have a way to hold that transmission. I find this an outstanding lack of simple understanding of how a tractor is used. ESPECIALLY this "industrial" tractor. Maybe Kubota can justify it on a tractor that isn't sold with a backhoe..."it's a farm tractor...you aren't supposed to be using it anywhere except on flat farmland..."

Let's see, the manual says I can put a 3300 lb trailer load (not counting trailer) behind this, and/or 1500 lbs in the loader...and I'm supposed to rely on the parking brake?

I can deal with this the same way I dealt with my first car, carry "PARKING BRICKS" park it into a tree, etc. And it's true probably you'd have no problem. "Probably?" That's a comforting thought. The owners manual actual mentions parking it 90 degrees to the downslope! Hmm, I thought it was unsafe to be sideways on a hill!

What is going to happen with unknowning owners with older GST's with worn brakes use one of these. You know how it is, most people don't change tractor brakes until they KNOW they need changing, and if you wait until you know it with your parking brake, you'll be dead or your tractor will be damaged / destroyed.

I'm curious how any of you have dealt with this on your GST's, or have you not had it on a slope and realized this design defect.

To say I've lost all faith in Kubota's design abilty and their concerns for safety isn't far from reality.

As I mentioned, the L35 otherwise is my best choice, and will probably stay with it, but if you are looking at a "regular" L series tractor, why in the world would you go with a stick transmission that goes into neutral when you put it in gear with the engine off.

I would have been nice if the sales brochure mentioned this fact somewhere, that if you are looking for a gear tractor for hill holding safety, the GST is the LAST thing you want.
You probably aren't going to be able to discover this at a dealer on you own, most aren't on sloped ground! Now I know why...so their GST tractors don't roll into the street!

Summary...if the parking brake fails to hold on the HST, the tractor will creep. on the GST the tractor will HAUL ASS on it's way to self destruction.

del

1. (sorry for the long post, trying to reduce my anger level before Monday morning!)

 

[del.]

just trying to get my email address or link to come up.

oldcarparts@mygarage.com

 

[W5FL]

Del,

The only choice I had was a gear tractor so my comments should be taken as such. The brakes on my Kubota are absolutely wonderful. They hold the machine in every conditions I have had it in when running. The brakes were absolutely worthless on my previous tractor (A Massey) and the only brakes on the old Farmall were hand brakes over each wheel (and a crank starter).

I couldn't see anyway to make a clutchless shift without a hydraulic motor coupling, which I assume the GST is. That is synchronized gears with a hydraulic coupling to make it clutch optional. From everyone I have heard about they love the L35. I looked very carefully at getting one because it could do so much in such a small package (and I really wanted a backhoe). My land is almost one continous slope with plenty of rocks for a firm base and I have to use the brakes everytime I stop when the engine is running. I have never had the feeling that the brakes were not going to hold.

The only problem that I have noticed is that the tractor is so strong, that it can't tell the brakes are on. You can take off and the only time you would know the brakes were on is when you push in the clutch to shift gears or stop. Then the brakes bring you to a slamming stop, so they really work well.

Anbody invented a "BRAKE" warning light yet?

 

[del.]

I'll accept that the parking brake is strong, maybe I'm just stuck in the past and still believe in Murphy's law, what can go wrong will, and when I have a 6000 +lb tractor on even a small slope I'd like a secondary source. I can always stick the backhoe teeth in the dirt if I'm holding something with the loader I suppose, or maybe I could buy Mark's extra loader cylinders, attach some sharped steel posts and mount them so I can hydraulically stick them in the dirt when I stop! An automatic in a car has a park position why can't a tractor? Why couldn't that have been designed like the air brakes on a truck, so when there is no pressure (engine off or air pressure failure) the mechanism locks up.

The reason I chose the L35 is that everything ELSE about it is above what I could find elsewhere unless I went to a much more cumbersome unit (which I couldn't).

Thanks for your post.

 

[Bird]

del, I agree that I like the double protection feature, i.e., a "Park" position for the transmission as well as the parking brake, and I would assume it's just a matter of cost, but I've also driven diesel trucks and diesel motorhomes with Allison automatic transmissions and the only thing that holds them when parked is the park brake, and in some instances that's on the driveshaft. At least the park brake on the tractor locks both rear wheels, and I've never considered it to be a big deal. I fully expect the brakes on my tractor to outlast me, but if they ever do show signs of wearing and not holding, you can bet fixing them will be a top priority.

Bird

 

[MChalkley]

Wen, the mechanism that allows shifting between gears in the GST transmission is a hydraulic clutchpack. It is engaged by pressure from the hydraulic pump, which is why it isn't engaged when the engine is off. Other than that, and the control mechanism to tell it when to engage and disengage, of course, it's just a clutch. So, the GST has two clutches, the hydraulic one and the manual one. Both have to be engaged for the tractor to be "in gear" in the sense that it won't roll, and unfortunately, as Del found out, the hydraulic one can't engage without pressure, which requires the engine to be running. Bummer. I wonder why the designers couldn't have engaged it with a spring or something and disengaged it with pressure, like the air brakes on a truck do (for obvious reasons).

The L-series tractors have brake warning lights...