generator hook-up question

[MattEffinCameron]

We bought a house a few years ago that has a pre-wired generator hookup outside the garage (but no generator).

There is a barn about 100' from the house. The house has 200amp service and the barn has a 100amp panel which is wired off of the main house.

Is there any chance if I had an electrician come out, I could just add a generator hookup in the barn so as to run a PTO generator on my new tractor while protected from the elements (and not as close to the house)?

 

[reb]

To be legal and safe, there would have to be some way to ensure the house was disconnected from the grid when the generator is used. I don't know how it could be done. Relying on the user to disconnect the grid probably would not satisfy the typical bureaucrat.

The wiring should be adequate if the generator output cannot exceed the 100 amps the barn is probably wired for.

 

[techman]

It is possible, but not super easy. If you can feed the generator into the barn panel, there is no easy way to have the 100 amp barn feed "know" if the generator is active. Also connecting the generator to the barn when there is power would blow a breaker of blow out the generator. The "best" option is a separate line from the barn to the house with a 200 amp transfer switch at the house, or a separate feed breaker with a mechanical interlock to the main breaker at the house.

The cheap and dirty way is to feed into the barn panel only AFTER the main at the house is turned off. This would not be code, and care must be used to insure that when the generator is connected, the main is off. I have seen systems used (in industrial applications) that use locks with one key. One lock is on the main at the house. Turn it off, lock it out and remove the key. The same key is then used to unlock and enable the feed breaker at the generator. You could try to improvise something like this that might pass muster.

carelessness can either fry your generator or fry a lineman working on the outage.

Paul

 

[Clay45]

Used one of these on my load center:

National Ram Electronics

Maybe that will help. Tying in at your barn will only decrease the amount of juice at the house. Think loooong extension cord.

 

[Pettrix]

Just make sure to have a TRANSFER SWITCH so to separate and isolate the generator from the power grid electricity. If not, you can have a serious fire or result in electrocution/death.

 

[buickanddeere]

As previously stated the best solution is the supply line from the shed to the transfer switch.

 

[MossRoad]

It is possible, but not super easy. If you can feed the generator into the barn panel, there is no easy way to have the 100 amp barn feed "know" if the generator is active. Also connecting the generator to the barn when there is power would blow a breaker of blow out the generator. The "best" option is a separate line from the barn to the house with a 200 amp transfer switch at the house, or a separate feed breaker with a mechanical interlock to the main breaker at the house.

The cheap and dirty way is to feed into the barn panel only AFTER the main at the house is turned off. This would not be code, and care must be used to insure that when the generator is connected, the main is off. I have seen systems used (in industrial applications) that use locks with one key. One lock is on the main at the house. Turn it off, lock it out and remove the key. The same key is then used to unlock and enable the feed breaker at the generator. You could try to improvise something like this that might pass muster.

carelessness can either fry your generator or fry a lineman working on the outage.

Paul

YES!
Its called a Kirk Key.

There's a discussion about it somewhere here on TBN.

In a nutshell, you have to turn off the main power, remove the key, take it to the remote location where the generator is, install the key and turn it, then turn on the generator power. You cannot accidentally back-feed the electric grid with this setup.

Do some research on it. It may be what you're looking for. It seemed like a simple and elegant solution to me.

 

[MossRoad]

As previously stated the best solution is the supply line from the shed to the transfer switch.

No, that's not the best solution. The best solution is the legal, safe, cost-effective, convenient, least expensive and least disruptive to the owner that has to pay for it. We've had this discussion several times here on TBN. The kirk key will be the most cost effective best solution method in this situation.

 

[reb]

I hadn't heard of the kirk key. It sounds interesting. In the case of the OP how does it ensure the house master breaker is disconnected before the generator is activated?

 

[MossRoad]

I hadn't heard of the kirk key. It sounds interesting. In the case of the OP how does it ensure the house master breaker is disconnected before the generator is activated?

As I understand it, you cannot remove the key until the master is disconnected.

Once the master is disconnected, you remove the key, take it to the generator location, insert the key, and then turn on the generator disconnect.

Its impossible to have both on at the same time. Its on-off-on. Elegant solution... :thumbsup:

 

[Industrial Toys]

I looked at their site. They seem involved in some pretty serious industrial process control. Surprised Nuclear power plants wasn't mentioned.

I can't even imagine what their stuff must cost. Certainly, beyond the scope of this discussion.

 

[MossRoad]

I looked at their site. They seem involved in some pretty serious industrial process control. Surprised Nuclear power plants wasn't mentioned.

I can't even imagine what their stuff must cost. Certainly, beyond the scope of this discussion.

When we were discussing this several times in the past, we've seen them for $50 on ebay.

LOT OF (2) KIRK CK4367 KEY INTERLOCK WITH KEY | eBay

 

[MossRoad]

Here's the link to the discussion of a very similar project back in October of 2014.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ilding-powering-panel.html?highlight=kirk+key

Its a very good read. Changed my opinion of the kirk key setup about 5 pages into it. Ridiculously simple and cost effective.

 

[MossRoad]

And here's the recipe for Crow Casserole that I had to eat after that discussion... :laughing:

CROW CASSEROLE
1/2 dozen crow breasts
1 qt. sauerkraut
1/2 dozen strips bacon
1/3 c. chopped onion
In skillet brown the crow breasts, then place them on a 1 1/2" layer of sauerkraut in bottom of a casserole. Cover each piece of meat with a strip of bacon and sprinkle the onion over them. Cover the breast with another layer of sauerkraut and pour sauerkraut juice over it. Bake two hours in oven heated to 350 degrees.

 

[KubotainNH]

Simplistic yes but how do you know power is back on seeing the main breaker needs to be off? Tape one of these to the cable?

Milwaukee Voltage Detector-22-2 - The Home Depot

 

[MossRoad]

The Kirk Key does work but ............ It lacks a certain fail safe certainly of just a break before make transfer switch. Although it is better than Bubba and Billy Bobs double male ended suicide cord plugged into a dryer or welder outlet.

Again, we've been through this back in 2014. It is a break before make. You have to break the main disconnect before you remove the key. Then you have to install the key at the other point. Only then can you make the generator connection. That's break, remove key, walk to barn, install key, make generator connection.... break before make.

 

[techman]

The Kirk Key does work but ............ It lacks a certain fail safe certainly of just a break before make transfer switch. Although it is better than Bubba and Billy Bobs double male ended suicide cord plugged into a dryer or welder outlet.

Actually a Kirk Key solution is BETTER than a transfer switch since you must open the feed breaker, lock it and remove the key, then take the key to unlock the generator feed and close that breaker. "Properly installed" it will provide all of the interlock protection needed. The issue for the OP is to configure a Kirk Key/Lock to lock out the main breaker and the generator feed. Some mechanical adaptation would be required.

paul

 

[buickanddeere]

Actually a Kirk Key solution is BETTER than a transfer switch since you must open the feed breaker, lock it and remove the key, then take the key to unlock the generator feed and close that breaker. "Properly installed" it will provide all of the interlock protection needed. The issue for the OP is to configure a Kirk Key/Lock to lock out the main breaker and the generator feed. Some mechanical adaptation would be required.


paul

A real transfer switch is superior as there is no key to loose and no way to Jimmy two switches closed as they lack an internal integral tinker proof mechanism enclosed in one location.
Don't waste my time trying make up some excuse to attempt justification of being cheap.

 

[CobyRupert]

It's not superior if:
-You have to UNNECESSARILY run cable hundreds of feet to bring the primary source and secondary source feeders to a common switch.
-This may also involve costly trenching, conduits, and concrete penetrations versus using the existing cable that is already installed.
-You have to purchase a costly transfer switch.
- You have to get the utility to interrupt & relocate their service entrance point and possibly the meter.
- If someone wants to "jimmy" ANY installation they will.
- The key has to be inserted, and remains, at the switch activated. While not impossible to loose, the only time the key is out of a switch is when you're walking between switches during a transfer. (And if you loose the key, I guess you can just jimmy it! )