OP
rbstern
Platinum Member
He must have added the max wattage of every motor, appliance, light and electric toothbrush in your house.
Generator and propane tank sizing feedback needed
- Thread starter rbstern
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He must have added the max wattage of every motor, appliance, light and electric toothbrush in your house.
zmountaineer
Silver Member
He went to the breaker box and added all the amps up. I have 4-50amp breakers. Then 4-30 amp breakers. Then a whole bunch of 15s. 40 place box with only 2 remaining. New construction.
RNeumann
Elite Member
Confused why folks need 24/7 gen running. Wood stove, lanterns, camp stove (or propane), rechargeable batteries etc can cut the run time to a few hours a day.
All the hot tub should need is one or two of those ag water trough heaters ranchers throw in the water to keep things from freezing.
Good topic- much good discussion and ideas
All the hot tub should need is one or two of those ag water trough heaters ranchers throw in the water to keep things from freezing.
Good topic- much good discussion and ideas
OP
rbstern
Platinum Member
I think it's a matter of ability, attitude and outlook. My first instinct is inexpensive portable gen setup, circuit discipline, and making do with old fashioned solutions instead of all the modern stuff.
But other stuff quickly comes into play. Water storage solution if you are on a well. Pumping if you have a septic system with a pump. Can family members safely handle all the gear if the person who put together the subsistence solution isn't around?
Case in point: I love country living and DIY. My college-aged son has a city boy outlook. He can handle stuff if I am there coaching him about how and why to do things, but left to his own devices, he'd be in trouble, fast. Despite my best efforts. My wife loves country living and DIY, but has physical limitations. Chopping wood and moving a heavy generator are things she'll try hard to avoid (due to arthritis), even if it means paying a large propane bill.
nikdfish
Veteran Member
We have a Honeywell (~Generac) 22KW whole house unit here, installed last summer. There is a load management module on the 5 ton heat pump.
We already had a self owned 500 gallon above ground propane tank at the time of installation. Propane use, other than the generator, is as backup fuel for the HP system & supplying a set of seldom used gas logs (previous owners had a propane furnace & no heat pump). In the past we would generally refill the tank every other year or so, when the tank got to 50-60% full. I have just about talked myself into having a second 500 gallon tank installed parallel to the first.
My concern is that a full 500 gallon tank only has 400 gallons available & you can probably only use it down to about 100 gallons or so & still have adequate vaporization rates for generator under heavy load (or not so heavy & simultaneously running the backup propane furnace instead of the heat pump). If the tank is sitting at 1/2 full (~250 gallons), there is only about 150 gallons potentially usable generator + backup heat use, possibly representing < 5 days running full time, especially during a cold winter period.
A second tank would not only double the full tank total (800 vs 400), but would also allow a deeper draw while maintaining adequate vaporization rates (twice the surface area for a given level - so down to 100 gallons between two tanks?). In the 50% full scenario, with two tanks you have 400 gallons (500-100) of fuel potentially usable for generator + backup heat, easily well over a week even running full time.
Still thinking it over - Southern States will sell a new 500 gallon tank for about $1590 & do the delivery and installation w/plumbing for about $300. Looking at buying rather than leasing to avoid complications regarding who can fill what tank.
Nick
We already had a self owned 500 gallon above ground propane tank at the time of installation. Propane use, other than the generator, is as backup fuel for the HP system & supplying a set of seldom used gas logs (previous owners had a propane furnace & no heat pump). In the past we would generally refill the tank every other year or so, when the tank got to 50-60% full. I have just about talked myself into having a second 500 gallon tank installed parallel to the first.
My concern is that a full 500 gallon tank only has 400 gallons available & you can probably only use it down to about 100 gallons or so & still have adequate vaporization rates for generator under heavy load (or not so heavy & simultaneously running the backup propane furnace instead of the heat pump). If the tank is sitting at 1/2 full (~250 gallons), there is only about 150 gallons potentially usable generator + backup heat use, possibly representing < 5 days running full time, especially during a cold winter period.
A second tank would not only double the full tank total (800 vs 400), but would also allow a deeper draw while maintaining adequate vaporization rates (twice the surface area for a given level - so down to 100 gallons between two tanks?). In the 50% full scenario, with two tanks you have 400 gallons (500-100) of fuel potentially usable for generator + backup heat, easily well over a week even running full time.
Still thinking it over - Southern States will sell a new 500 gallon tank for about $1590 & do the delivery and installation w/plumbing for about $300. Looking at buying rather than leasing to avoid complications regarding who can fill what tank.
Nick
Dave M7040
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- Williamstown Ontario Canada
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In 1998 eastern Canada and the USA suffered from a major ice storm. My job required me to be out making certain schools used for shelters were up and running for citizens who had to leave their homes so I had to leave my wife and dog alone for about 16 hours a day for a few weeks.
At that time, I had a 3500 watt Honda portable and it would heat one room, run the well pump and the basics. My wife became skilled in load management for the generator shutting off some breakers while running others.
One night during this period, in the middle of a cold snap, my generator shut off. The crankcase vent line had frozen and all the oil in the crankcase was forced out. Thankfully the generator had a low oil shut down.
I started check the manuals of many different generators. Almost every brand said do not run below 5F.
What is one to do if it is -40F.
During this same ice storm period, a friend was running a portable generator which set his house on fire. The generator was running in the driveway which sloped towards the house.
The vibration of the generator caused it to slowly move down the slope until the exhaust was blowing against the garage wall which caught fire. No phones or cell service. The house was destroyed.
After that, I installed a 22 KW Generac which will run in the cold. I am now 71 and could not manhandle a portable generator. In 1998, I could lift my 3500 watt Honda into the back of a pickup by myself.
I tell people who ask me for advice, that their emergency plan should contemplate the strong, knowledgeable person in the family to be ill or away.
Dave M7040
At that time, I had a 3500 watt Honda portable and it would heat one room, run the well pump and the basics. My wife became skilled in load management for the generator shutting off some breakers while running others.
One night during this period, in the middle of a cold snap, my generator shut off. The crankcase vent line had frozen and all the oil in the crankcase was forced out. Thankfully the generator had a low oil shut down.
I started check the manuals of many different generators. Almost every brand said do not run below 5F.
What is one to do if it is -40F.
During this same ice storm period, a friend was running a portable generator which set his house on fire. The generator was running in the driveway which sloped towards the house.
The vibration of the generator caused it to slowly move down the slope until the exhaust was blowing against the garage wall which caught fire. No phones or cell service. The house was destroyed.
After that, I installed a 22 KW Generac which will run in the cold. I am now 71 and could not manhandle a portable generator. In 1998, I could lift my 3500 watt Honda into the back of a pickup by myself.
I tell people who ask me for advice, that their emergency plan should contemplate the strong, knowledgeable person in the family to be ill or away.
Dave M7040
OP
rbstern
Platinum Member
That's a nice setup. How's the noise level?
fatjay
Elite Member
I converted a portable gas generator permenant. I have a 10kw from amazon that was $750. It'll run my whole house. When my power is out, it's typically winter, and fairly cold. My wood stove helps, but the way my house is laid out, I need my oil furnace and water pump to pump water through my house. My furnace is also my hot water, and i have a well pump, so when I run my generator I typically need to run it around the clock, especially at night when it gets cold. If the furnace goes out at night even with the fire going, it's not uncommon to wake up to a 50F house.
It is a water cooled, so it starts off with a noise advantage. I have it in my shed, which is about 30' from the house, with exhaust piped outside the shed. You can hear it a bit with windows open, but if they are closed you do not know it is running.
paul
OP
rbstern
Platinum Member
Very nice setup.
ning
Elite Member
Around here, I swap tanks when either I smell too much of the scent (settles somewhat and gets more concentrated when you get really low) or when the kitchen stove's pilot light goes out (it's a 50's stove and we can still cook and bake when the power's out, without bothering with a generator's noise).
I've never had a supplier mention having a pressure test below 20%!
nikdfish
Veteran Member
Bit the bullet & had the Southern States guy order a 500 gallon tank for me. I'll just rest easier with the additional capacity & not have to worry about running out or getting insufficient vaporization while using the generator in a protracted outage during the kind of weather that requires use of the propane furnace.
Nick
Nick
What you see is my half-assed breather - an oiled cloth. Just to keep dirt and water out.
It will run longer, depending on the season. If it is not too hot or too cold I shut it down overnight during a power outage. Don't need much power when we are sleeping !
paul
check
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Yup. We go up A LOT in the winter, and it gets really cold up there. (About 2 1/2 hours north of Toronto.)
The cottage is heated with a propane powered furnace, and it is a fully insulated and winterized Viceroy.
check
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- 2009 Kubota BX25
Fortunately, we do not get multi-day outages very often. Maybe four or five of them in the last 10 years. So, we just bite the bullet when that happens.
check
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Wow, Dave, I had no idea that you could not run the portable generators when it gets cold. Back when we built the cottage in 2002, we bought one and had a generator sub panel installed. Don't remember if we ever had to use it in the dead of winter, but we now have an automatic standby generator powered by propane. No problem so far.
Meanwhile, we are now using the portable generator for a rental cottage, but we only rent it out in the Spring, Summer, and Fall, so I guess we will be OK. However, the ultimate plan is to winterize the rental cottage, so I will keep that cold issue in mind with respect to the portable generator!
