Gear drive vs hydro

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OK Didn't see the others or was not as effected by.

No. 2 would not fall under the term "poignant " for me

I suppose no 3 may in terms of what the rider has just experienced in exasperation of her mount so I guess they're may be mental appeal for some.

But the juxtaposition of rider and horse in no 1. has much mental appeal for me for 3 reasons. A. The composition of this shot is superior. It uses the classical "S" type compositional placement. B. The dynamic tension created by the girl looking one way and the horse another adds to the emotional impact of the imagery. This line is so well connected and that the chances of this connection are so absolutely fleeting in photography it becomes moving that it was captured at all. ( I really wish one could see more of the riders face) 3. My own daughters evented for 15 years and everybody lived so there is the mental attachment there as well for me in regard to trucking my kids up and down the east coast for 10 of those years and witnessing their rides in dressage, stadium and cross country.

 

[N80]

george, you gonna get poignant up on wikapedea or do we all have 2 bash heads when we all get there @the same time..?

sounds like an odor

Jake, how in the heck can you manage to spell poignant right and Wikipedia wrong? I think I have discovered a few clues.

I think you do it to disguise who you really are. Why do I think this? Why would I accuse you of being a fraud?

Well, the definition of poignant is: evoking a keen sense of sadness or regret and comes from the Latin root pungere' which means to prick. So something poignant pricks the senses. And in that regard, an older, archaic use for the word poignant was SHARP OR PUNGENT SMELL.

But why am I telling YOU this? I'm quite certain you knew it all along and that your constant malapropisms, improper spelling, atrocious syntax, and virtually nonexistent punctuation are a cover up. You're just trying to be one of the guys....and yet you are not! You are actually an etymologically sophisticated and cunning linguist....like me!

Touche'

 

[jk96]

That's all there is to it right? Or is that too many 'propers' and 'properlys' for you? If so, are you asking which type will handle abuse better? Which type will handle more load than it is built to handle? Which will last longer under extreme conditions? I don't think anyone knows.

No - just asking out of curiosity since any time anyone mentions doing any type of ground engaging work the concensous is to stay away from the hydro and buy a gear. So I assumed that there was a lot of evidence/experience showing that all other things being equal, a gear would outlast or outperform a hydro for this type of work. Seems that the real reason is that you can get more hp for the money or the horsepower needed for less which I can't argue with.

 

[N80]

But the juxtaposition of rider and horse in no 1. has much mental appeal for me for 3 reasons. A. The composition of this shot is superior. It uses the classical "S" type compositional placement. B. The dynamic tension created by the girl looking one way and the horse another adds to the emotional impact of the imagery. This line is so well connected and that the chances of this connection are so absolutely fleeting in photography it becomes moving that it was captured at all. ( I really wish one could see more of the riders face)

Excellent critique and thanks again. I am not a natural at photography and I do not easily recognize good composition as it presents itself. I try to make up for lack of natural talent with good technique and good equipment and that helps. What really helps is a fast, high resolution digital camera and some talent at recognizing decent composition after the fact. In other words, fast 200mm lens, fast digital camera, lots of images, recognizing the keepers (very few) and the trash (very, very many).

And that gallery is pretty old and no longer tended to. So much of what is in there, would end up in the trash today.

My own daughters evented for 15 years and everybody lived so there is the mental attachment there as well for me in regard to trucking my kids up and down the east coast for 10 of those years and witnessing their rides in dressage, stadium and cross country.

My daughter has quit jumping (horse problems) and is now primarily doing dressage, which I find boring. But I support her. And to turn this hijack back to the original topic...boy, do I support her. I could say that if I wasn't wasting money on horses I could have easily purchased an Grand L 5740HST with all the bells and whistles and would probably be arguing as irrationally as the rest of the HST crowd that it could walk on water.

But probably not, it would be an M7040. Gear.

 

[john_bud]

Why is that so hard to understand? Or more to the heart of the matter, why is it so hard to admit?

George,

Go back and read my posts. Just the last line of the first few - before I intellectually gave up.

You will see what I posted and how I feel about various transmissions.


On the other hand, you and some others have rose colored glasses for only one type of transmission. Then add in its not about the transmission, it's about the size of the tractor for the same $. But not real cheap tractor. Only one specific example where a stripped model is being compared to a luxury model. Fine.

 

[N80]

No - just asking out of curiosity since any time anyone mentions doing any type of ground engaging work the concensous is to stay away from the hydro and buy a gear. So I assumed that there was a lot of evidence/experience showing that all other things being equal, a gear would outlast or outperform a hydro for this type of work. Seems that the real reason is that you can get more hp for the money or the horsepower needed for less which I can't argue with.

That about sums it up for me. And, that if you are a Zen Clutch Master, Order of the Stick, you can get a fair amount of work out of a crummy old beggars-can't-be-choosers gear grinder. And that at the end of the day your left knee will hurt.

 

[jk96]

And, that if you are a Zen Clutch Master, Order of the Stick, you can get a fair amount of work out of a crummy old beggars-can't-be-choosers gear grinder.

I cannot argue with that either, however I will never be a "Zen Clutch Master" since I am too lazy, hence the hydro

 

[jake98]

What? That's it?

Help Wanted: New George needed for Circular Conversational Work in a sophisticated no-pay environment. Duties include:

 

[N80]

Go back and read my posts. Just the last line of the first few - before I intellectually gave up.

Nah. No need to re-read. You or me. We can't agree. We can't even agree to disagree (never really understood that phrase anyway). But, we can both give up or give out and that's probably just fine.

No minds have been changed despite incontrovertible, rock solid, indisputable evidence from both sides. Insults have been exchanged. People's sexuality and proficiency with the English language have been questioned. And the horse was dead before the first blow was dealt. And yet I've learned a ton of stuff in this thread. I've also had some great laughs. I've been forced to do a little research. I've learned a lot about a lot of TBN regulars who all seem to be good folks (seriously, imagine this whole long conversation amongst friends over a few beers. It would just sound like a bunch of decent guys shooting the bull.) So I wouldn't call it a total loss. And since I currently have absolutely no choice what kind of tractor I use, I'm going to keep trying to convince myself that its a good, capable machine, even if everyone else knows for a fact that it is not.

Time for bed.

 

[jk96]

Only took me and George 27 pages to finally agree on something

 

[N80]

Help Wanted: New George needed for Circular Conversational Work in a sophisticated no-pay environment. Duties include:

Do I get to fill in the blanks?

 

[dmccarty]

On the other hand, you and some others have rose colored glasses for only one type of transmission. Then add in its not about the transmission, it's about the size of the tractor for the same $. But not real cheap tractor. Only one specific example where a stripped model is being compared to a luxury model. Fine.

Earlier I had posted these price quotes from 2000 for the same tractor model with different transmissions. HST would have code me quite a bit more money for less HP.

A JD4700 PowerReverser is 21,355. Same tractor with HST was 22,910. A difference of 1,555. HP was 41.5 vs 40.0

A TC40 with gears was 15,600 and with HST was 17,500. A difference of 1,900. HP was 35 vs 33.2

TC35 with gears was 14,700 and HST was 16,600. 1,900 difference again. HP was 29.6 vs 29.1 which is not much of a difference. Typeo?

I bought the 4700 PowerReverser. $1500 is alot of money and basically bought the MX 6 rotary cutter. So is an HST tranny worth a rotary cutter? Not in my book its not. I need a mower far more than I need HST.

Later,
Dan

 

[Soundguy]

Under ideal conditions.. might be a wash or so close of a race as to not have a well defined winner. i know there are a few IH hydro's from years past.. while I'm sure some of them are still running.. what I've heard mostly is that you just keep putting heavier oil in them till they no longer pull.. then you throw them away.

Now.. back to the question.. so far al that has been discussed was ideal conditions.. heck.. lets throw in some reality and go with non ideal.. or even 'abuse' conditions.

Put that identical HST and gear tractor thru the paces for decades.. except.. don't change or even check the oil in them.. add some water and grit...

Can't tell you how many gear trans antiques I've draind the tranny oil on and had 5 gallons of choclate milkshake that had probably been in there 20 years, and smelled like a sealed tomb full of rotting carcasses, and then when i cleaned the bottom of the sump there was an inch of thick gooy gritty gunk in there.... and no filter on this splash lubed system.

Kick that level of care over to an hst.. no new filters.. ever.. no new oil.. low oil.. water in the oil. and a kids playground bucket full of sand in the system... that's pretty much 'standard -noworries mate' package for the average antique gear trans...

that's the sad facts.. not all tractors get the attention they need.. the simpler designes tend to be more robust and hold up to abuse better than over-ticked high performance systems in the long run... vs 'white-glove and lab coat conditions for both in which you may not see a lifespan difference worth mentioning..

soundguy

As mentioned, if you use the proper implement under the proper conditions and operate the tractor properly then HST should hold up as good as or better than a geared machine.

That's all there is to it right? Or is that too many 'propers' and 'properlys' for you? If so, are you asking which type will handle abuse better? Which type will handle more load than it is built to handle? Which will last longer under extreme conditions? I don't think anyone knows.

I think if you had two mythical machines, identical in every way including, pay attention here, including drawbar hp and the only difference being that one is HST and the other gear. Put them through the same tillage use over time and I'd guess it would be a wash. Maybe even a nod to the HST to last longer. But, the key word there is 'mythical'. I don't think any of us, when considering our needs can exclude cost.

So:

The dollar/HP angle can still come into play here. Consider a $18,000, 45HP gear tractor and ground engaging implement 'x' and soil condition 'y'. It handles that implement adequately under those soil conditions with regular use over time. Now, take that same $18,000 and get the highest HP HST you can buy (35 HP at best) and use that same implement 'x' under the same soil conditions 'y' with regular use over time. My guess is that the HST will have problems related specifically to that use before the gear tractor. Now this is no great revelation. The same would be true if you put a 35 HP geared tractor into the equation. In other words, given the same stress, the less powerful tractor is likely to have problems before the more powerful tractor, if you had to put odds on it. (And again guys, we have to assume the same general build, tires and set up, otherwise you simply cannot keep these inane theoretical......less inane and theoretical.

 

[N80]

Dan, what I think he is suggesting is that if money is the object, instead of buying a Rolls-Royce 45 hp gear tractor for $20,000 you could get a $20,000 45 hp HST Belarus-Renault-Fiat (new European brand collaboration, with Chinese parts assembled in a cave in Ukraine and marketed by Renault-Fiat for the prestige value.)

Of course that makes no sense at all.

 

[Soundguy]

cunning linguist

And here I thought it was only james bond that fell into that category!

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

No - just asking out of curiosity since any time anyone mentions doing any type of ground engaging work the concensous is to stay away from the hydro and buy a gear. So I assumed that there was a lot of evidence/experience showing that all other things being equal, a gear would outlast or outperform a hydro for this type of work. Seems that the real reason is that you can get more hp for the money or the horsepower needed for less which I can't argue with.

Not to kick in tangent info there.. but most of the heavy tilalge done in this country.. well.. most of the convential stuff has already been done.. and most of it was done with an old 2wd gear tractor of some sort. Cheap.. no frills.. lots of hp.. lower cost.. plow a straight line... etc.

If i was buying primarilly for dragging a ripper shank all day every day.. i can't see spending the price differential for hydro..... and even if there is only a small % of extra hp loss.. why take it.. get the one more suited for the job.... if I was doing loader work all day, every day... I think an HST might be in my barn... it's all a matter of application.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

That about sums it up for me. And, that if you are a Zen Clutch Master, Order of the Stick, you can get a fair amount of work out of a crummy old beggars-can't-be-choosers gear grinder. And that at the end of the day your left knee will hurt.

hey.. now .. that's catchy.... order of the stick....

Reminds me of the ford 8spd gearbox.. almost universally refered to as a 'crashbox'.. still one of the most robust trannies ford turned out for their tractors though...

George.. remember .. not everyone can learn to drive a stick.. and some that do.. aren't good at it... that's what auto's are for!

soundguy

 

[N80]

George.. remember .. not everyone can learn to drive a stick.. and some that do.. aren't good at it... that's what auto's are for!

soundguy

You might be right. But even my 14 y.o. daughter can get around on the thing.

 

[CrazyQ]

Wow! That is sloooooow. I can hardly see the utility in a gear that low, unless you have plenty more to work with. But if you do, that's pretty cool. How many forward gears does it have?



Yes, as we speak the safety gods are getting all red in the face and preparing for bluster. And I'd have to say, I'd never do that....but at 1/4 mph I can see how it would be tempting?

No operator presence switch on that model?

12 forward gears up to 17 mph. I will never use any more than High 2nd gear. No safety switch on the seat.

 

[CrazyQ]

Are you talking talking about getting off a moving tractor too? Do you guys ride in the bucket while doing this?

Haven't tried that! Does sound fun though...I have some limbing to do on a couple of trails. Where can I get a remote control for the loader hydraulics?