Fun with square tubing

[Knight9]

PJ,

<font color=blue>Sure wish I had a work shift that allowed me to take an adult education class in welding</font color=blue>

I took an adult ed welding class in the evenings for a couple of months. It was a lot of fun and we were able to experiment and try a few projects of our choice. I really enjoyed it....but have yet to take the plunge on actually purchasing a welder. I will say that I found MIG welding much simpler than the stick arc welding, but that wasn't too bad. The instructor had an auto darkening helmet that he let us try, and if I went with a stick welder that would be a must. I just had trouble seeing to strike the arc with the old flip down helmets. Probably it would come with time, but wow do those helmets make a difference!!!

Kevin

 

[phantom309]

Hi Mark-

I've never used a band saw (on metal) so I can't address that question. I do have a chop saw and it's a darn handy tool. It'll cut just about anything that you can fit it its (very large) throat. The three inch round stock that I used to make my bar bender in the picture in my first post was cut with a chop saw. I like a chop saw because it's easy to get a perfectly square cut. Put the metal in the saw and clamp it in place and then just feed in the saw with a little pressure. Heavier stuff takes longer, but it'll get through it.

The disadvantage of a chop saw is that it can't be used for anything but straight cuts. For that, a torch works well. I've read great things about plasma cutters also. They have all of the advantages of a torch, but can cut lighter sheet metal without warping. But they're spendy and for my needs (work mostly with 1/8" - 1/4" steel) a oxy/acy torch is fine. A torch will leave a little bit of a ragged edge though, so you'll need an angle grinder to neaten up the edge.

IMO, a decent starting set of equipment for somebody that want's to do some real work with a welder now and then (in contrast to just fixing something here or there) would be:

1) 220V arc welder
2) chop saw
3) angle grinder
4) oxy/ace torch
5) welding helmet - go ahead and spring for an auto-darkening one, you'll eventually want one.

Plus a few other cheap things like gloves, a slag hammer and a couple boxes of rods. My favorite rod is 6013. It gives a nice looking bead. I use 1/8" for almost anything except if I want to weld something like 14ga steel then I'll use 3/32". They say that 6011 rod is better for rusty metal, but it splatters a lot and doesn't produce as nice a looking bead.

Mark

ps: And you're right about an arc welder having a little bit longer learning curve, but it's really not toooo much longer. The key to making things go smoothly with arc is to try to put whatever you're welding horizontal in front of you. It's pretty easy to produce a nice weld with an arc if the work is horizontal. Vertical and overhead work is harder and that is the area where MIG is easier for the beginner. Many times it is possible to orient your work horizontally, but sometimes, of course, whatever you're working on is too big to move around/flip over, etc. But with a little luck, by that time, you'll have had some more practice and then the jump to out of position welds won't be too bad.

One last thing - if you do end up buying a set of bottles for a torch, make it a priority to have one of your first projects to be to make a cart or stand to secure your bottles in. They can be tipped over easily and literally can become missiles if they fall over and the valve gets knocked off.

 

[pajoube]

Mark,
Your right on track with your questions, reading my mind.
I looked at chop saws and band saws as well. Appeared to me that the chop saw was second best to the band saw but more expensive.
PJ

 

[micromike]

Here are a few welding links for those interested

http://www.lawnsite.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=21

http://www.driveonline.com/html/experts_covell.html

http://www.thermadyne.com/tdc/literature/cutmaster50.asp?div=tdc

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/faqs.html

 

[JRP]

Your 30 degree cut sounds like a good idea sor an automatic gate closer.

JRPoux

 

[wroughtn_harv]

<font color=blue>Your 30 degree cut sounds like a good idea sor an automatic gate closer.
</font color=blue>

Actually I wouldn't recommend this for gates. The reason is because the angle cut makes the effort to open considerable and the momentum or energy of the close dangerous.

Now I am a big fan of using offset hinges to facilitate self closing gates. Say like in situations where there's swimming pools or places where it is in the public interest for the gate to be closed at all times.

I can't count the times I've had customers and strangers open a gate to watch it close over and over again. They just can't get over how a gate will automatically close all on it's own with no springs or hydraulic cylinders.

I've had to educate more than one city inspector. They require a self closing gate when there's a pool. So they drive up, don't see a spring on the gate, nor do they see a closing cylinder, they fail the job.

I drove up right after an inspector had red tagged a job. When I saw the tag I called his office and they sent him back. He was ticked. I asked him why the job got the red tag. He explained the gates didn't have springs.

I pointed out to him the regulation was for a self closing gate. That didn't mean the gate had to have a spring. He got snotty.

I told him to at least try the gate. If they gate didn't automatically close I'd gladly accept the red tag. He tried it. He tried it again. And again, again, again, again. He tried it with the old closing the gate until it's right against the latch and then releasing it to see if it could overcome the latch mechanism all on it's own. It did.

I just stood there, waiting.

Finally he came over to me and threatened to red tag the job unless I explained how in the hell I'd made that gate close all on it's own like that.

I showed him that with the offset hinges you not opened the gate out but you opened also up. Gravity made the gate close. Gravity works almost everytime. In fact the only time I can recall it not working was the time when I was a teen and her no was a definate maybe.

Sorry for the diatribe. But offset hinges are an old not often used solution. And they work better than anything else for gates around pools.

 

[pajoube]

Harv,
Didn't mean to jump you away from your thread. Seems these discussions can take many turns from the original post. That is a tribute to you Harv, you sure do stimulate the thinking.
PJ

 

[wroughtn_harv]

PJ,

I'm just glad you got the enthusiasm. Folks just don't seem to understand exactly how much fun all this is. In fact sometimes I'll stop and worry about myself. I mean it just doesn't seem to be natural to be so naturally high on just making things.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

About this welding thing ya'll are all talking about.

The most important thing to understand about welding is there is no magic. It's all about heat and speed of travel. That's why automatic welders are used when ever possible. A machine can set there at the perfect speed of travel with the right heat and the weld will be perfect everytime and more often than not.

So when you try it and things aren't working it isn't you being incapable of understanding. It's all about the speed of travel and the heat being wrong. So instead of throwing your hands up and having a fit you sit down and try to figure out whether the heat range is wrong or the speed of travel is wrong or if both are out of kilter.

I've learned that welding gets better with practice. Practice means you're doing it over and over and over and over and over.

Then one day you're laying a beautiful pass that's the perfect combination of penetration and coverage and it just seemed to happen. Sorta like driving down the highway and you realize that you're really doing it, driving, it ain't hard.

I personally believe the best way to learn welding if one can is to learn to gas weld first. The reason is because with gas welding you're doing it with just the basics and you get to see what happens when welding occurs. You get to move a puddle and watch it catch this side and then that side and then chase that spot in the middle.

Then every other process, mig, tig, stick, is all about using the principles you've learned with the oxy acetylene to make it happen. You know what to look for when the weld is happening. You're watching the sides, the puddle, the middle, and you're chasing, chasing, chasing.

I've had both the Thunderbolt buzz box from Miller and the 225 from Lincoln. I like the Miller and for two reasons. First and foremost because with the Miller you have infinate adjustment of amperage. With the Lincoln you jump five to ten amps at a time. And sometimes that leaves you twixt and twean too hot and too cold.

The other thing I like about the miller is having the plug ins for the cables. this allows you to have one set of cables that are short and another that are long. You can exchange them with your gas drive if you have a portable machine. It just makes you more flexible.

I'm not too crazy about MIG except for the very experienced weldor. The reason is with MIG you're doing more of a hot gluing than you are a welding if you're not careful.

The biggest flaw I fix when customers bring in things to be repaired involving welds is cold joints from MIG welds.

Folks MIG welding are watching their weld happen and it's prettier than the finest frog hair. But they're not seeing that the weld is just laying on one side of the joint. And just looking at the weld it's hard to tell it either.

Panasonic has a new MIG--stick machine that I'd really consider if I was going to try to get one machine for the shop--garage. It's a two hundred and fifty amp MIG and a hundred and fifty amp stick. I like the way it's put together.

I learned to weld on sixteen gauge galvanized fence tubing. If you're looking at your weld you're looking at smoke. So I was really lucky in that I learned on just about the hardest stuff possible. My dad was the gateman at a fence company and he was good, very good. So I learned the hard way.

Just about two months ago I put some equipment together and started welding aluminum, TIG. I hadn't done it for almost thirty years and then I'd only done it once.

So there were many evenings of sitting there talking to self and explaining to self that it's all about heat and speed. And I knew folks who welded aluminum all the time. If they could then surely I could.

I love welding aluminum btw. It's different but still the same.

The best advice I can give to those wanting to learn how to weld would be to get the best machine they think they can't afford right now. That might be a used buzz box or it might be a thirty five hundred dollar combination one that will polish your boots as you weld.

Then I'd buy some three sixteenths by inch and a half bar stock. I'd cut it into pieces four inches long, lots and lots of pieces four inches long. Then I'd start putting them together, badly at first of course. But I'd put them together and then I'd break them apart. I'd try to figure out what I'd done right and what I'd done wrong. Over and over and repeatedly and often.

I'd try sixty eleven rod first. It cuts like a bugger bear mad and only the very best can make a decent looking pass with it. So you get to see it cut and weld and you learn rather quickly you can't make it pretty. That allows you to forget on what it's looking like and concentrate on what it's doing.

Funny thing about welding. You can try to make a pretty bead and fight it like crazy and end up with not only an ugly bead but a bad weld. But if you work at making a good weld the pretty bead just happens. I think there's a good metaphor on life in there somewhere.

It's bedtime. I hope each and everyone of you has the welding gawd go after your soul. It's a good thing.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Wow Mark, You and me have a lot in common.

You can go <A target="_blank" HREF=http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/lst?.dir=/Truck+stuff+trailer+stuff&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=ph%26.view=t>here</A> and see some of the truck stuff I've done.

My truck, the white chevy, is a rolling workshop. BTW you'd probably appreciate the sleeper looking box wasn't made with some fancy roller but by plasma cutting six inch .188 wall pipe length ways into into quarters and then cut at a forty five for the joint.

The back end box under the bed runs all the way through. It's where I keep stuff like shovels, diggers, bars, etc. I floored it in expanded metal so all the dirt goes back to the pavement instead of filling up the box.

Under the Trailblazer welder rides two full sized oxygen bottles on roller trays like they have in the telco utility beds. We know you always burn up two oxygen bottles for one acetylene so that's the way the truck is set up. The acetylene sits standing up in front of the welding machine.

I tried to set it up where all the often used stuff is accessed from the field or passenger side of the truck. Just a safety thing. She's got a gooseneck hitch in the bed, a receiver hitch front and back, and a pintle hitch for my big trailer.

The eight by eight business end of the bed is all three sixteenths plate. The tool box is eighth and fourteen gauge as required.

I've got lights for the bed and for the box controlled from the dash. I wanted those new trick diode lights for the taillights but at fifty dollars a piece and me having six lights back there I've settled for just two on the headache bar.

If you get a chance look at the winches I mounted on the fire trucks. They're twelve thousand pounders and the guys say they've stalled them out without hurting the mounts.

The personel racks on the back of the fire trucks are made to come off with two pins out of receiver hitches and one light plug.