Fun with square tubing

   / Fun with square tubing #31  
Hydrogen in the air reacts with the molten weld metal and makes it brittle. The air also makes it impossible to lay down a good bead. Thats why you need a shielding gas. The flux on a rod melts with the fill metal and floats to the top of the bead, thereby shielding the bead from the atmosphere. The use of argon or CO2 or nitrogen or other shielding gas used with a wire feed welder serves the same purpose. It saves cleanup time. It also has its problems. You can't weld with a fan blowing on you or a breeze running through your work area because it'll blow away your gas. You can tell when that happens because it gets hard to weld with all the spitting and spattering and your weld looks like birds&*t. Flux core wire solves this problem and the slag is thin and easy to chip off.
 
   / Fun with square tubing #32  
Hi PJ-

Yes, "buzz box" is a slang term for an arc welder. These do not require gas because the weld is shielded by the flux coating on the welding rods. Advantages of arc welder:

1) As I mentioned, they are relatively cheap
2) Unlike gas-shielded welders, they can be used outdoors in the wind (wind disturbs the gas shield and messes up the weld).
3) Can lay down a darn-nice looking weld. IMO, a nice arc weld bead looks better than a MIG weld bead - you can get that nice, shiny "stack of dimes" look with an arc welder.

Disadvantages of arc:

1) The flux coating forms a glass-like slag on the weld that protects it as it cools. Generally, you'll want to knock off all the slag. Certainly so if you intend to paint. This takes time, and if you want a clean shop floor, needs to be swept up.
2) Welding rods are consumed and need to be replaced often. So this takes a little time also.
3) Require a little more practice on "out of position" (vertical or overhead) welds. But if I can learn to do it, anybody can!

IMO, the main advantages of MIG over arc are that out of position welds are easier, and also the "trigger" on a MIG welder is nice - there's no chance of accidentally giving yourself "arc eye" as you can with an arc welder by accidentally touching the arc rod to the base metal before you intended to. Buying an auto-darkening helmet will make this a non-issue (they're great!). And since MIG doesn't require you to change welding rods or pound slag, you can get more welding done every hour - a good thing for a pro that welds for a living, but not too big a deal for a hobby welder.

The cheapest MIG welders frequently cannot run gas and instead must use flux-wire. Welding with flux wire produces slag on the weld like arc welding, but they can be used in the wind. Any welder that can run gas can also be used without gas by running flux core wire.

FWIW, I've never found keeping gas bottles around to be a problem. Even though I'm only a part time hobby welder, I've been at it long enough to know that it's something I'll keep at for a long time, so I went ahead and bought bottles (oxygen, acetylene, and CO2). I bought half-sized bottles that are easier to handle but still big enough to not need replacement very often at all.

The inspection on the tanks is good, I think, for five years. But that's not an issue for me. The welding supply shop where I bought my tanks takes care of that for me. I bring in an empty bottle and then pick up a full bottle that has been inspected. If I wanted, they'd let me leave my bottle and then pick it up a day or two later and always keep my original brand new bottle, but it's much more convenient for me to just continue to swap them out in one visit. Since I bought my bottles, all I pay for is the gas I use, and there's no monthly charge - all the advantages of bottle renting, but only a single up front charge.

You are right about being able to lay down multiple passes with a small welder. The smaller welders, however, will not get the penetration into the base metal that a larger unit can. So, for instance, if you're going to "butt weld" to pieces of 1/4" flat steel to each other, you can use a small welder and lay down a few passes along the seam, but the weld will mostly just sit on top of the metal and not penetrate into the core of the two pieces being joined.

You can work around this a little by tapering the ends of the two pieces of steel so that when they are butted together, there is a little valley between them that you then fill up with weld in multiple passes. This would be fine to do now and then, but I'd not want to have to do that often as it would take a fair amount of time.

IMO, in addition to the lack of penetration with small welders, an equally significant problem with them is duty cycle. This is the amount of time that they can spend working versus "resting". This resting time is critical to allow the machine to cool. The higher you crank the output voltage/amperage of a welder, the lower the duty cycle will be. In some cases, the duty cycle can drop to a horribly low 10% or so, so you need to make sure and spend LOTS of time allowing the machine to cool, or risk burning it up.

If a small welder is advertised to be able to weld "up to" a certain thickness of steel, that maximum thickness is guaranteed to be at the highest output setting and as a result will have the lowest possible duty cycle for the machine. If, however, you buy a machine that's advertised to weld steel that's quite a bit thicker than you think that you'll want to work with, this tells you that for the work you'll be doing, the machine will be set below it's maximum output setting and the duty cycle (higher to begin with on larger machines) will be increased even more.

I guess everything's a compromise. Some welders have advantages over others, but depending on how much use you plan to put a welder to, it's possible to work with what ya got and just live with the shortcomings. I do think that a cheap 220V AC arc welder gives the most power and highest duty cycle for the money. As was mentioned, with 3/32 welding rod, you can weld some fairly thin stuff. I use arc to weld 14ga steel with no problem regularly. Anything much thinner and I risk burning a hole in it. The main thing I like about the 220V arc is that it's plenty big to weld trailers, hitches and other "heavy" things at about half of it's maximum output. And since you'll have to stop now and then to change rods, etc, the duty cycle will never be an issue with a machine that size.

I'm sure that Harv has waaaaay more experience than I do. I'm really no expert. I guess my main motivation in posting is to encourage others to jump in and give welding a try. With no formal training and some reasonalby cheap equipment, anybody can be making some pretty neat stuff with just a little practice!

Best,

Mark
 
   / Fun with square tubing #33  
Re: Fun with square tubing , WELDING CAUTION!!!

CAUTION about purchasing a welder guys!!! It tends to lead to purchase of a grinder, a bandsaw, a bunch of airtools, a compressor, a huge selection of various metals, and then you'll have to have a shop for it all. Be carefull out there...
 
   / Fun with square tubing #34  
Re: Fun with square tubing , WELDING CAUTION!!!

<font color=blue>CAUTION about purchasing a welder guys!!! It tends to lead to purchase of a grinder, a bandsaw, a bunch of airtools, a compressor, a huge selection of various metals, and then you'll have to have a shop for it all. Be carefull out there... </font color=blue>

Too late for me and I don't even have a welder yet Jim /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif We went slightly over budget on the electrical for our house and I like to think it's the extra lights and outlets we put in (not to mention upgraded service). Our builder (jokingly) tells my wife it's all my fault for the welder circuit I demanded in the garage /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
 
   / Fun with square tubing #35  
Mark, Mike, Brad, Ozarker,
Many thanks for the great advice - you guys are super.
Now what I got out of this (hope I'm right) is that a 220V arc welder is probably the best route to go. With this I can use either a welding rod (with gas) or flux core wire (without gas).
I have not welded since high school. With the move coming up and the ordering of a new tractor soon, the need for a welder for all those projects is close at hand.
I have enjoyed the many welding books by Richard Finch. I also understand that there are some good videos available.
PJ
 
   / Fun with square tubing #36  
PJ,

<font color=blue>is that a 220V arc welder is probably the best route to go. With this I can use either a welding rod (with gas) or flux core wire (without gas). </font color=blue>

Well, either you or I are confused /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif. I'm pretty sure the arc welder is ONLY for rods. To go with the wire (with gas) or flux wire (without gas) you have to go to a MIG welder.

Kevin
 
   / Fun with square tubing #37  
Hi PJ-

With an arc welder, your only option is flux coated welding rods. They're about 14" (something like that) long and you put them, one at a time in a "stinger"/handle and use them. You put a new one in place as they are consumed. You do not use gas with an arc welder.

A MIG welder is also called a wire-feed welder. They use *spools* of wire. The wire is fed out on demand as you pull a trigger. So the wire feed welders don't require you to stop and swap out welding rods. And the MIG welders can use either solid wire or flux wire. If you use solid wire, you must use a gas shield. All but the cheapest MIG units allow you to use gas if you want, and I'm pretty sure that they ALL can use flux wire if you don't want to use gas.

Hey, just noticed that you mentioned Richard Finch! It was one of his HOWTO books that I bought years ago that got me started! He's certainly done it all!

Best,

Mark

ps: what was said above about a welder purchase leading to other purchases is certainly true. Use the low entry price of a welder to get the tool in the door and then you can slip in "just one more thing" from now until doomsday.

One thing that you will find that you'll need soon is some way to cut steel. If you're stuck with a hacksaw, you'll get tired of welding right quick! So a sawzall, chopsaw or oxy/ace torch will need to follow PDQ. I like a chopsaw for square cuts and use the torch for most everything else.
 
   / Fun with square tubing #38  
<font color=blue>Now what I got out of this (hope I'm right) is that a 220V arc welder is probably the best route to go. With this I can use either a welding rod (with gas) or flux core wire (without gas).</font color=blue>

With the 220 arc welder, you will use welding rods, no gas required. With a wire or MIG welder, you can use flux cored wire, or solid wire with gas.

I found the MIG/wire weldor much easier to learn and use. After playing with it for about 1/2 hour, I was making usable welds. If you get a higher end 120v wire weldor, (I have a Lincoln) you don't have to worry about running it over its duty cycle, it will shut it self down until it is cooled off enough. I only had this happen a couple of times when I was welding heavy steel with long joints. As far as penetration on heavier metals, I just turn it to its highest setting and turn the wire speed to slow and weld the joint slowly.
 
   / Fun with square tubing #39  
Kevin, thanks for clearing that up. As you can tell, my preference is for MIG (wire core without gas) but will need 220v for some of the heavier stuff. If not then will go with the stick welder with gas.
If I go with the mid size MIG welders, my understanding is that they can switch to gas. Sure wish I had a work shift that allowed me to take an adult education class in welding.
PJ
 
   / Fun with square tubing #40  
So one of the 220v Lincoln arc welder’s sounds like a good place to start. If I read right, the learning curve may be a bit longer than a small Mig but it will be more versatile and will handle 3/16 and ¼ steel better than the little Mig’s.

Now that we know how to put it together, what should we look at for cutting it to size? I know about “Chop saw’s” but not what size metal they will cut. Also what is the advantage of the horizontal band saws over a chop saw? And finally, what are the other basic tools needed to get started.

Thanks,
MarkV
 
 
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