slowrev
Elite Member
ToadHill said:
Umm many/most hydro plants have a limited amount of water to use for electrical production. None the less a good idea.
Fuel follies
- Thread starter patrick_g
- Start date
- Views: 5990
Umm many/most hydro plants have a limited amount of water to use for electrical production. None the less a good idea.
slowrev
Elite Member
Ethanol might not be really efficient, but it channels more of our money back into our rural economies than oil does....
patrick_g said:
If I go to the drug store I can buy a quart of rubbing alcohol on sale for 79 cents. So thats about $3 a gallon delivered in those nice little bottles with labels suitable for the medical industry. I gotta believe the label on the bottle probably costs more than the product inside. I would guess one could produce and deliver in 8000 gal lots pretty cheap. I don't know how that product is made and what it's made from. But, if it is about the same stuff as is put in e85 why would they sell it so cheap? So many say here, it cost more to make alcohol than they are selling it for. Does the government give tax help to those who make those little bottles of alcohol. Or is this alcohol made from something different? If so lets use that product to make e85.
Does anyone know the cost to produce a gallon of alcohol?
Cheers
HomeBrew2
Banned
slowrev said:
Interestingly, at least one local hydro here pumps the water back uphill at night, when demand permits, to replenish the resivoiur.
HomeBrew2
Banned
coffeeman said:
Yes. Distiller's grain. Everything eats it but don't know how it's nutritive value compares to corn.
Heaven forbid that we should have less Gov intervention and let anything resembling a free market with intelligent Government oversight prevail.
What about the factories making shoe buttoners for high button shoes. Now that the fickle public have stopped wearing high button shoes the Government should step in and subsidize them to make high button shoe buttoners so the poor idiots incapable of doing anything else don't all starve along side their pitiful hollow eyed children.
I'm sure this nation and our way of life would be endangered if the Gov left the price and distribution of corn to the producers and consumers. Similarly, we don't want to endanger the oil companies by developing real instead of pretended ecoconscious alternative fuels.
I wonder why the oil companies are so INTO ethanol. Could it be because it mostly is blended with their product, its production is petro-chemical intensive, and it does NOT reduce their sales. They make $ coming and going on alcohol blended fuel.
The farmers and investors involved with corn for motor fuel are not one trick ponies unable to feed themselves if their corn was sold in a free market instead of in an artificial market. Most investors are just looking for a good ROI and if it is our tax money to their bank account then fine by them, otherwise they'd invest in Chinese cell phone networks or amalgamated Zyzyx Ltd. Corn to motor fuel isn't religion it is just politics and noit good long term economics.
Yes, some grain byproducts make good cattle feeds. Corn gluten, a byproduct of corn refining for corn sweetener, is one of them. I feed it and have watched the price spiral up as corn for motor fuel demands grow ahead of corn supply. Increased corn costs also impact folks heating with corn stoves, chicken and egg operators, hog farms, and feed lots to name a few off the top of my head.
Since it is apparent that neither of us is convinced by the other's comments, let's just agree to disagree and go on being good long distance friends who just happen to have a topic on which topic on which we are not in full agreement.
I give you the opportunity for the last word on the subject between us.
Pat
What about the factories making shoe buttoners for high button shoes. Now that the fickle public have stopped wearing high button shoes the Government should step in and subsidize them to make high button shoe buttoners so the poor idiots incapable of doing anything else don't all starve along side their pitiful hollow eyed children.
I'm sure this nation and our way of life would be endangered if the Gov left the price and distribution of corn to the producers and consumers. Similarly, we don't want to endanger the oil companies by developing real instead of pretended ecoconscious alternative fuels.
I wonder why the oil companies are so INTO ethanol. Could it be because it mostly is blended with their product, its production is petro-chemical intensive, and it does NOT reduce their sales. They make $ coming and going on alcohol blended fuel.
The farmers and investors involved with corn for motor fuel are not one trick ponies unable to feed themselves if their corn was sold in a free market instead of in an artificial market. Most investors are just looking for a good ROI and if it is our tax money to their bank account then fine by them, otherwise they'd invest in Chinese cell phone networks or amalgamated Zyzyx Ltd. Corn to motor fuel isn't religion it is just politics and noit good long term economics.
Yes, some grain byproducts make good cattle feeds. Corn gluten, a byproduct of corn refining for corn sweetener, is one of them. I feed it and have watched the price spiral up as corn for motor fuel demands grow ahead of corn supply. Increased corn costs also impact folks heating with corn stoves, chicken and egg operators, hog farms, and feed lots to name a few off the top of my head.
Since it is apparent that neither of us is convinced by the other's comments, let's just agree to disagree and go on being good long distance friends who just happen to have a topic on which topic on which we are not in full agreement.
I give you the opportunity for the last word on the subject between us.
Pat
patrick_g said:
Hey Pat
I'm not 100% sure if your posting to me, however, a couple things.
1. I'm not sure oil cos are gung ho in favor of ethenol.
2. You are talking of just corn based ethenol, I believe. You still think there might be some value to the ethenol idea, in event research could or will improve production costs.
3. I'm sure the government folks ore not waiting for a call from us to see how we like their ideas.
Good lively discussion is good for all. All ideas might help. Maybe not for us but maybe someone in research might spark some idea because of discussion read here or elsewhere. Years back I had a brother-in-law that had serious legal problem. I and my wife and kids were at the lawyers with him, and all were discussing. My daughter was adding something to discussion and most of the folks at the table talked over her. She was about 9 yrs old. The lawyer stopped all of us and wanted to hear what she had to say. Later lawyer mentioned to me that sometime a different prospective is offered by young people. You get a different way to look at things, if you listen. It could help, kinda like the old story of truck stuck under the bridge. No one knew what to do untill the little kid standing next to the tires suggested letting the air out of the tires. He was right down on the problem.
Cheers....Coffeeman
Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol. For motor fuel they want ethanol (grain, i.e. drinking alcohol.) Isopropyl sold as rubbing alcohol is typically 30% water. I think I have seen it as low as 30% alcohol. It would be exceedingly poor as a candidate motor fuel even at 100%.
How cheap it is doesn't influence motor fuel prices.
Yes, of course, my rant against alcohol for motor fuel is based only on corn or any feedstock politically manipulated to try to make it look like a solution to our energy problem when it isn't helping. If switch grass or unicorn horns can be used as feed stock to produce ethanol cheaply enough (produce more energy than is consumed in the manufacture) then I am for it as part of an interim solution while we are looking for better.
I don't think anyone said that big oil was thrilled with gasohol but they are not losing $ to it since it uses so much petro inputs. It is close to a zero sum game to them. They have no reason to be particularly unhappy with it unless they perceive it to have opened the door to sources that actually can reduce oil consumption, like say, cellulose based ethanol production.
Pat
How cheap it is doesn't influence motor fuel prices.
Yes, of course, my rant against alcohol for motor fuel is based only on corn or any feedstock politically manipulated to try to make it look like a solution to our energy problem when it isn't helping. If switch grass or unicorn horns can be used as feed stock to produce ethanol cheaply enough (produce more energy than is consumed in the manufacture) then I am for it as part of an interim solution while we are looking for better.
I don't think anyone said that big oil was thrilled with gasohol but they are not losing $ to it since it uses so much petro inputs. It is close to a zero sum game to them. They have no reason to be particularly unhappy with it unless they perceive it to have opened the door to sources that actually can reduce oil consumption, like say, cellulose based ethanol production.
Pat
patrick_g said:
I have one more question, to clear things up for me. Is there two kinds of help from government. #1 As i remember in the old days, if a farmer got gov help it came by way of being paid for not planting corn, wheat etc. or plowing under before harvest. If true today then the farmer doesn't get help for products taken to market. I have no idea how it works today. #2 I guess the real tax incentives come from the gov in form of cash or deductions to producers of ethenol? Is this how the tax help works? Just wondering.
Any way we look at it, it's the regular guy who gets ripped.
Cheers... Coffeeman
HomeBrew2
Banned
patrick_g said:
Obviously you are not hedging your inputs with an appropriate investment.
Similar threads
- Locked
