ford 1700 hydraulic problems

[JC-jetro]

have taken the conical seat out and started tractor. nothing on gage. stopped tractor remove gage. started tractor. nothing coming out.

look at thread #20

 

[mellowrose]

once again i thank you for helping me out. i will definitely look at hole match up on the cylinder head. i am going to go over the rest of the things that you told me again as i possibly missed something. sometimes i get in a hurry and miss things. i dont have to have this tractor for anything right now. the flow pattern gets tricky once you get to the relief valve and aluminum plate. definitely going to try and see if i can figure that out a little better. if i decide to go to the spool then the parts break down in one of your threads will help. sometimes i make things harder than they really are by getting in a hurry.

 

[Tinhack]

Are you sure you put the O-ring and backer on the piston correctly. The O-ring goes to the pressure side, the backer ring on the low side.

 

[JC-jetro]

Are you sure you put the O-ring and backer on the piston correctly. The O-ring goes to the pressure side, the backer ring on the low side.

1700 lift piston does not have a backer seal/o-ring. It has only one double lipped piston seal. The bigger o-ring just seals the removable cylinder to the head. O-ring 21 and 22 seal the cylinder #13 to head #20. Take a look at the attachment.

 

[JC-jetro]

once again i thank you for helping me out. i will definitely look at hole match up on the cylinder head. i am going to go over the rest of the things that you told me again as i possibly missed something. sometimes i get in a hurry and miss things. i dont have to have this tractor for anything right now. the flow pattern gets tricky once you get to the relief valve and aluminum plate. definitely going to try and see if i can figure that out a little better. if i decide to go to the spool then the parts break down in one of your threads will help. sometimes i make things harder than they really are by getting in a hurry.

Just take your time, as they say "no good deed ever goes unpunished" Many years ago I hand drawn flow and scan it and posted it but for the life of me I cannot find it as I catalog everything very well, following is how the flow is in order.

Diffy is your oil reservoir, suction screen in diffy, suction to pump bigger dia pipe, hyd pump, pump discharge smaller dia pump, discharge flow to relief device, pressure against spring caused pressure, pressure above the spring stiffness causes relief to open to save the pump from dead heading and failure, oil goes to spool, if hyd block is used for for loader then flow is diverted two places, 3 point and loader, loader once satisfies as far as height return unused flow back to diffy, 3 point once satisfied diverts unused oil back to diffy. flow to 3 point goes to lift piston, the feed back arm dumps unused oil back to diffy at any give height, if you have a shock load such as hitting uneven ground with the weight hanging on 3 point a bit of relief is squirted out to save the seal and is immediately made up by hyd pump and this thing continues as long as tractor is on

 

[Tinhack]

1700 lift piston does not have a backer seal/o-ring. It has only one double lipped piston seal. The bigger o-ring just seals the removable cylinder to the head. O-ring 21 and 22 seal the cylinder #13 to head #20. Take a look at the attachment.

Ops, sorry. I just got through installing the ring and backer on my 3910. Thought that drawing showed the same 2-piece ring setup. My eyes are clearer now. :ashamed:

 

[JC-jetro]

Ops, sorry. I just got through installing the ring and backer on my 3910. Thought that drawing showed the same 2-piece ring setup. My eyes are clearer now. :ashamed:

Oh, that's fine , my kubota does have a backer like you said. My 1700 is a 40 yr old tractor, it does not have all the refinement but still one heck of simple reliable tractor. I would not part with it .. unless my life depended on it,

 

[mellowrose]

wrote a long reply and could not load it. problem fixed. will post tomorrow and explain.

 

[JC-jetro]

wrote a long reply and could not load it. problem fixed. will post tomorrow and explain.

alright, good to hear. Messing with the spool was really the absolute last resort.:thumbsup: one solution to save your reply is to open your word processor, type and edit , you can save if you like and then cut and paste it in the reply box.

 

[mellowrose]

got the control valveapart and could not see anything wrong. blew out everything put it back togeather, installed on feedthru plate and then back on tractor. installed aluminum block and relief valve. did not try to see if it worked because i did not find anything wrong. so i thought if nothing was wrong but i am still not getting past the control valve, it must be in the wrong position. remembered something about the 3 point lif arms being all the way upfrom a post you wrote somewhere and also from my manual. look that up and there is an adjustment for the position control lever. said to disconnect the position control lever put the lift lever all the way up but not quite all the way up and start the tractor. i did that and the 3 point arms lifted up all the way. the relief valve was squealing so back off a little and it stopped. i was amazed. hooked the position control lever back up and 3 point would go up and down just fine. put my 6 foot rake on and up and down and hold just fine. so here is what i think iwas doing wrong. everytime i would check or do something i would work the lift arm lever around to se if things worked. would never leave it all the way up,inbetween down and up somewhere. so the control valve was not in right position. now with the position control hooked up it always starts in the right position. at least thats what i think. also have reading on gauge.could not have done it without your help JC. if something is not clear i will try and explain a little better. all is good.

 

[JC-jetro]

got the control valveapart and could not see anything wrong. blew out everything put it back togeather, installed on feedthru plate and then back on tractor. installed aluminum block and relief valve. did not try to see if it worked because i did not find anything wrong. so i thought if nothing was wrong but i am still not getting past the control valve, it must be in the wrong position. remembered something about the 3 point lif arms being all the way upfrom a post you wrote somewhere and also from my manual. look that up and there is an adjustment for the position control lever. said to disconnect the position control lever put the lift lever all the way up but not quite all the way up and start the tractor. i did that and the 3 point arms lifted up all the way. the relief valve was squealing so back off a little and it stopped. i was amazed. hooked the position control lever back up and 3 point would go up and down just fine. put my 6 foot rake on and up and down and hold just fine. so here is what i think iwas doing wrong. everytime i would check or do something i would work the lift arm lever around to se if things worked. would never leave it all the way up,inbetween down and up somewhere. so the control valve was not in right position. now with the position control hooked up it always starts in the right position. at least thats what i think. also have reading on gauge.could not have done it without your help JC. if something is not clear i will try and explain a little better. all is good.

Ok buddy, it is all good. It makes sense .I perfectly understand. Remember , I kept saying " feedback arm returns the spool to neutral at every chosen height of 3 point". it was basically that from the get go. Only think it was dumping the oil at the lowest level. I kept saying we really should not remove the feedback arm just for adjusting the pressure although there was vague reference to it on the manual. As they say " live and learn" and this was a good case of it. From now on and in future if you attempt repair which appears you have the courage to do, remember to leave a bread crumb trail on your way. just borrow nail polish or buy a yellow one and leave your self witness mark prior to any disassembly. Sometime a punch or dremmel tool is a good tool to mark mating parts. I also use a digital caliper from HF under $20 to measure how far in and out a nut is on a stud or stuff like that to at least put things where they used to be. I do take a lot of pictures as it appears from my posts. I have done panoramic pics of entire tractor when I bought it for reference and trying to figure things out. Now this adjustment might have been dorked up by previous owner...who know!. Glad you got it to work:thumbsup:


Ps. I am glad you did not have to take spool apart as it is difficult and finding parts might be difficult. I doubt if you could have found a new one, high $$$$ also

 

[mellowrose]

yes there aren lessons to be learned here. thank you very much for your help.

 

[JC-jetro]

yes there aren lessons to be learned here. thank you very much for your help.

My pleasure.

 

[Paulbunyan62]

Good evening. I know this thread is old I’ve looked at a couple different post about this problem with Ford 1700 no 3 point hydraulics and I’m still stumped. But for whatever reason I’ve got a little different setup than most I’ve read about attached is a pic of my relief valve setup and block for front bucket hydraulics and power steering. Have all hydraulics but no hitch hydraulics with the lift piston head off I have flow inside the block but no pressure at the gauge port any help is much appreciated. Wondering if JC is still around to help thanks in advance

 

[JC-jetro]

Paul,

I am still around. Yup, this a bit different. Looked at the pics closely. There are two seems like 1/4'' ?? lines behind the 4 wheel drive selector. Can you identify where they go and what function they serve? why don't you do the following test and report back. I will have two picture below here. There are the lift cylinder head. On the left side from operator seat you will see two set of check valves/detent balls. very carefully take them off. Make sure not to lose the balls or the spring. You will have a hard time to purchase them easily. Clean them and keep it in a magnetic tray so you would not lose them. Operate your rig with someone holding a bucket underneath and rag in front of the hole. Operate the 3-point lift arm and observe flow and rate of flow and report. Additionally, we had made much reference to lift piston seal, have you looked at them? do they look good and undamaged.

JC,

 

[Paulbunyan62]

Good morning JC. The 2, 1/4” lines run behind the 4wd selector down the left side of the trans cover and under the dash area to a hydraulic box on the steering column I’m assuming power steering. What I’ve done so far is hydraulic oil and filter clean, new lift piston seal, took apart relief valve and cleaned, took apart check valve and cleaned as well everything looks good. Had the head off yesterday and have lots of oil raining down from just above the spool valve inside the diff. I started with hydraulic filter and oil change first as that was the easiest fastest fix filter was disgusting as like the one in a previous picture in one of your post cleaned it in the parts washer air dried over night Monday morning I filled with fresh oil just over 6gals like the book calls for started tractor 3ph worked as it should worked up and down multiple times with even a buddy standing on the arms. Stopped the tractor restarted that evening to till a garden spot of mine once again no hydraulics at 3ph so I go to the next start pulled the flow control valve checked piston seal and have the seal wasn’t even there and what was there was crumbling so I ordered one and replaced that Friday after work and still nothing. Have since then cleaned relief and check valves to no avail just drawing a blank on where to go from here. Attached will be a pic of the 1/4” lines and how they run thanks for the help.

 

[JC-jetro]

Good morning JC. The 2, 1/4” lines run behind the 4wd selector down the left side of the trans cover and under the dash area to a hydraulic box on the steering column I’m assuming power steering. What I’ve done so far is hydraulic oil and filter clean, new lift piston seal, took apart relief valve and cleaned, took apart check valve and cleaned as well everything looks good. Had the head off yesterday and have lots of oil raining down from just above the spool valve inside the diff. I started with hydraulic filter and oil change first as that was the easiest fastest fix filter was disgusting as like the one in a previous picture in one of your post cleaned it in the parts washer air dried over night Monday morning I filled with fresh oil just over 6gals like the book calls for started tractor 3ph worked as it should worked up and down multiple times with even a buddy standing on the arms. Stopped the tractor restarted that evening to till a garden spot of mine once again no hydraulics at 3ph so I go to the next start pulled the flow control valve checked piston seal and have the seal wasn’t even there and what was there was crumbling so I ordered one and replaced that Friday after work and still nothing. Have since then cleaned relief and check valves to no avail just drawing a blank on where to go from here. Attached will be a pic of the 1/4” lines and how they run thanks for the help.

Mornin Paul,

Very busy this am and will be on travel next week. I will have to read carefully to get a mental picture of what's going on. Did you do what i suggested in previous post with pics? What I am trying to ascertain is if you actually have flow in to the lift cylinder head. With that plug removed oil should gush out. If it does not issue might be with spool. I will have some time to read your response tonight.

JC,

 

[Paulbunyan62]

No worries JC and yes sir I have cleaned throughly I had the plug removed and no oil coming out of the plug hole. Would the flow control valve cause the 3ph to not raise or does that just adjust the speed the hitch let’s up and down? Thanks

 

[JC-jetro]

Yup, that was what I wanted to know. I assume no oil was gushing out all the time you were raising and lowering the lift arm? is that correct? if so , I think you are diverting the flow in to diffy housing from spool valve or right at the relied device that sending the oil back to diffy rather than fighting relief valve spring to make pressure ( flow against a dead head or spring pressure is what causes pump pressure. Do you have an oil filled pressure gauge good to 3000 psi? look at the pic below. If you install one where i show in the picture you can verify system pressure there. If no pressure there then you will not have flow. In this case either spool valve or relief is diverting flow to the diffy. Which one? I don't know but by process of elimination hopefully we can find it out.

JC,

 

[Paulbunyan62]

Yes correct no oil comes out of either one of those plugs I’ve removed to check for flow and no oil comes from either one. I’ll try a gauge on the pressure port but I’ve had that plug removed as well and no oil comes out. It should come out with the gauge plug removed correct?