Engine Siezed, What to do?

[leonandtherese]

Greetings fellow TBNers.

First of all, I would like to say thanks.
The missus and I bought a small farm 2 years ago, our first attempt after leaving the city, (factory for me, small business for the missus).
If it was not for this site, I would have been beaten down, even more than I am.
Trying to learn, but too old for FFA & 4H.
Locals are like everywhere else, good and bad, honest and scams.
The community on this site though is what is the best in people.
Always meant to post, but always got caught up reading other threads.
Sooo much to learn it is nearly overwhelming.

Anyways.
Finished spring maintenance on my Kioti DK45SE HST, Tranny/Hydro filter & oil change, cleaned flushed radiator, oil w/filter change, greased points.
Finally have a good 4 - 5 days of weather to get my first cutting in, (alfalfa w/orchard grass).
I am in hog heaven.

After the cut, I begin to tedder.

I am very good about watching my gauges, everything fine.
But before I realize it, my oil light comes on, and as I review the situation, the engine does one stomach turning screech, and shuts off all in the space in the blink of the eye.
I am very good about shutting down the tractor as soon as problems occur, (broken pins, bolts, etc), but never had a chance.
Turn the key to off, hop off the tractor, and find the one of the oil pan bolts have come loose.
My fault, I usually double and triple check things because I am so paranoid of screwing things up when I work on them, especially my vehicles, (not a pride thing with me, it is solely a cost concern).
Did not properly tighten the bolts.
I am still sick over it.
But, have to do something.
Replaced the bolt, put oil in, it started, drove it back to the shed.
Came to my security blanket, and ask for help.

The question is, what are my next steps to find out what damage was done?

I apologize for the length, but have learned from previous threads, the more information, usually the better.

The picture uploaded, (if properly done), was me celebrating God's creation just a few short hours before being reminded of a line from "The Seven Samurai", "God hates farmers".
Maybe in my case he hates stupid farmers.
But Lord knows I'm trying.

Thanks in advance to the community.

Leon & Therese

 

[plowking]

I'm surprised your tractor didn't have a low oil shutdown sensor, maybe it happened to fast. You may have to open your oil filter and check for any metal. Rod and main bearings may have to be checked, oil pan could be hard to drop if axle ,front driveshaft are in the way. These tractors don't hold much for oil,mine[different brand] only holds 2-2 1/2 quarts with filter,not much oil if you have a bad leak. I hope everything turns out ok for you. plowking

 

[JoelD]

Super sorry to hear what happened!!!

What did the motor sound like when you drove back to the barn?

Not sure what to say, I think the party line would be. Drop the pan, check mains, pull the head, check cyl walls.

Not sure how you could get away without a rebuild?? Mains, honing the cyls. etc.

Got to think some serious damage was done if she seized?

There are others out here with much more experience than me, I'm familiiar with seizing two stroke gas (raced motocross for number of years and blew up my share of motors), who can provide some sound advice.

I'd hate to run the motor much after that for fear of something letting go a breaking what's not already broke.

Good luck my friend.

Joel

 

[foggy1111]

OK....so lets see if we have the facts straight first:

Did you leave the drain plug loose and this was the cause of the oil leak?

How long (hours) did you operate after the oil change?

What RPM's and load while operating?

How hot was the engine when you first shut it down?...or, it shut itself down?

I think you need to explain what happened to a GOOD tractor mechanic and have him take a look at the engine for you. If you got it started again and no new noises....that is sure a good sign.

I hope it turns out well for you....but I think your in for an overhaul of the rings and bearings ....maybe more??

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

I would Take it to a dealer I trusted and have it checked out. The best case scenario would be just having to replace the bearings. I have had drain plugs get knocked off trucks at work and if the driver catches it soon enough ,only have to change the bearings. Do not start the tractor!! Winch it on a trailer to get it to the repair shop. If you have spun a bearing every time you start it you are doing more damage. This is not a do it your self job unless you are a mechanic. I hope things work out well for you.
Bill

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

if it started back up and you drove it back to the barn, why do you think it's seized?
I agree with pull the pan and filter and look for metal shavings.
I also agree with talk to a real mechanic.
How old is the tractor/how many hours?
what kind of relationship do you have with your dealer?
how did it sound when you drove it back to the barn?

 

[leonandtherese]

I love this community.
Really.
Been a follower since we bought the farm.

I have to agree with all.
There has to be damage.
And further operation will only exasperate, (sp?), it.

To answer some questions posed though.

The total time from when the oil light went on to the engine shutting itself off was approximately 1 minute, (I obsessively watch my instrument panel).
The screech, (metal on metal), and shutdown was instantaneously.
The drain plug was completely missing, somewhere mixed in with the alfalfa.
Hand tightened when I took the tractor out, (meant to go back to ratchet, but . . . wouldn't be this thread if I did), total operation time from spring maintenance to shut down, 3 hours.
2000 RPM's with very light load, (tedder), at time of shut-down.
Young tractor, two years old, 233 total hours, (Expletive OUCH!).
It sounded well when I took it back to the barn, but A) will look for metal shavings in the pan, (thankfully it is easily accessable), and filter, and B), will find a mechanic to review.
Once again, I am inclined not to start it up until fully diagnosed.
Finding a "trusted mechanic" could be difficult though, (no disrespect meant Hooked on HP, nice El-Camino shot).
Unfortunately, I am new to the area/state, (originally from Detroit, Go Wings!), and the dealer that I bought it from has ceased operations.

 

[Knight]

I'm curious, what did it run like on the way back to the shed after putting oil in it?

 

[BotaBigot]

...I have to agree with all.
There has to be damage.
And further operation will only exasperate, (sp?), it...

There IS damage...as evidenced by the screech/seize. The issue is how much, and that depends to some extent on engine design. Your areas of concern are crankshaft bearings and cylinder walls. Hopefully, the engine stopped before cylinder wall damage. First, you'll need to check (or have checked) rod and main bearings, along with associated crankshaft surfaces for overheating/scoring. This is where damage starts with lack of lubrication, and the amount of damage to the bottom end determines how you proceed with repairs...

We've all experienced similar distractions...usually with minor consequences. Sorry that's not the case here...

 

[rdbrumfield]

If it seized from full throttle I would be very surprised if at least one connecting rod isn't bent a little.

Most likely you will be buying a new crank, rids and bearings for the lower end. I doubt if it hurt anything else.

I had a friend that had just changed oil lik yourself and lost the engine within half an hour. When he took the filter off the o-ring stayed on the engine. When he replaced it and went on his way, it blew out the ring and emptied the crankcase.

It is so easy to get distracted when we do things. I am sorry such simple things can cost us so much.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Well, I'm going to be the bad guy here and say to go ahead and use the machine. Everybody is saying that it is going to cost you money, so why not go ahead and keep using it? It very well may keep going for quite awhile, or it may break and cost you some money. It is one of those things that you just don't know. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there is no damage, just that it may be only as if you have many more hours than you actually have, but still workable.

Just my opinion, nobody else has to agree.

 

[Mith]

If it had seized the starter probably wouldn't have turned it over to get it going again when you refilled it with oil. And it would probably sound prety bad when it was running now.
Engine might have shut down because of the low oil shutdown switch (most probably the tractor has one). Usually engines can run for a couple minutes with no oil, and seeming as you say it was 1 min max from fine to stopped then you might have got away with causing much damage.
The screech might have been caused by something like the fan belt maybe, an engine going from 2k to stopped puts alot of strain on the drivetrain and ancillaries.

You could just drop the pan off, turn the engine over by hand a couple of times to check for any obvious problems. If nothing obvious then change oil and filter.

I think thats what I'd do, presumably you are losing money while the tractor is stopped too.
If the tractor does indeed had bigger damage (possibly not) that'll show up pretty soon and your best bet then would be to find a reconditioned engine, should be about for your tractor by now. Rebuilding seized engines without having to work on the block is unusual.

 

[JoelD]

I would definately not run the machine until you've pulled the pan and head and see what's going on in there.

I definately agree with the guys who suggest a good mechanic take a look-see.

Last think you want is to have her completely break a connecting rod, break a piston skirt, then do the blender routine. Why loose a piston or possibly head if you don't have to.

It is an interesting point though, you get super lucky and are able to run the machine for a long time post seize (which I gues is possible, but highly unlikely).

I've seen two strokes seize and then once coolled down start again, not a pretty sound though once they start again.

I agree, it is highly likely you've got some damage to your bearings.

Hope all goes well for you.

Joel

 

[PILOON]

"Engine might have shut down because of the low oil shutdown switch "

I'd favor that thought.
Check the engine specs and find out for sure, if that is the case the odds are in your favor.
If bearings had spun I'd doubt that the starter could turn her over to start her up.
Siezed engines generally need major forces to unstick them, like 3ft breaker bars on crank or hammering the pistons down with blocks of wood etc.

If indeed a shut off protection was present, change the filter and oil, cut open the filter (messy) and look for metal particles. (some might be present from normal usage, but not a lot)

Also the sudden stoppage (without major change in sound and performance prior) suggests a switched cut off to me.

A bit of research prior to major panic might well be advised.
Phone a dealer or even the factory distributor to determine status of a switched cutoff possibility.

Good luck.

 

[Oleozz]

The oil pan bolt on my Kioti 45 was loose, I had a previous thread in the Owning/Operating forum about the problem. According to the one poster the pan is aluminum and from my experience seems to strip very easily. I put a different bolt in and that solved the problem.
Hope things work out for you and no serious damage was done.

 

[psj12]

If you have a manual get out the wiring diagram and give it a look. Work backward from the shut off solenoid and look for a low pressure shutdown switch in the circuit. Or look in the list of components under the diagram for a low pressure switch and then look it up on the diagram to determine if it is in the fuel cutoff circuit.

If there is a low pressure switch you are in luck and I would continue using the machine. If there is not then you will need to disassemble at least your lower end.

Having been a diesel mechanic for many years I have seen this scenario many times. Damage may not be limited to the bearings. It could have also caused scoring of the pistons and liners. During the lower end inspection rotate the engine giving particular attention to the cylinder walls for signs of scoring or piston material smaered on them. If this happened then you need an engine rebuild.

 

[radioman]

unforunately I am not a diesel mechanic, but do advise you to find one. I would start talking to your local dealers, even if it not kioti dealer. they should point you in a direction to find a reputable tractor diesel mechanic. Tractors are meant to run forever so getting it checked out and paying the high bills will save you alot of money in long run, otherwise you will be looking at to replace the tractor or the engine yourself. On the other hand, you might luck out it ok for several hunded hours more, but no oil is a bad thing for any engine. Take our advice with a grain of salt. get it checked out anyway. I am sorry for your loss, but for price of worrying is greater then paying the diagnosis .

 

[leonandtherese]

"but for price of worrying is greater then paying the diagnosis"
Taint that the truth.
I appreciate everyone's advice.

My plan of action.

1). Check to see if the tractor has a low oil shut-off switch.
(oddly enough, just this last friday, 3 days before the event, I ordered a shop manual for the tractor).
2). Find someone to bale the harvest, (I had people do it the first year we moved down here, last year I attempted, ruined 2 out of 4 cuttings due to rookie farmer mistakes of rushing, not curing properly, letting them get a sprinkling of rain, baling, getting mold).
3). Sorry MtnViewRanch, I can not risk creating greater damage to my tractor, (my first one!), and my peace of mind by running it. I have enough experience with working on autos, (as a teenager/20ish I extensively worked on the Chrysler 318 motor), to realize, even with a low oil shut-off switch, there could be enough initial damage to only snowball with continous operation. Granted, you are correct, it may run as if an older engine, it may run for a while. I have it sitting, will do some preliminary checking, find a certified mechanic, and take it in.
As the bankrobber would say in the movie Dirty Harry, "I gots to know"
Will send update as soon as I gots.

Once again, as Elvis would say, "thank you very much"l.

Sincerely

Leon and Therese

 

[woodlandfarms]

By the fact the tractor ran, I am not so sure about seizure.

I am wondering if your oil got low, the engine kill kicked on, and the noise you heard was from the mower (or even the tractor) coming to a complete stop suddenly (belts spinning, blah blah blah).

How much oil did you have to put back in to get the indicator to normal?

If you want to be cautious and not get stuck out in the field, get a mechanic to go over it. But, the truth is damage is done if the engine actually seized, and you will require probably a complete rebuild. So continuing to run it until it finally fails, or your coffers fill up financially, probably isn't going to do too much more damage than allready done.

See, you allready started it and got it back to the barn. Whatever additional damage that could be done by restarting the engine has been done. Why not just keep driving it till it fails.

 

[kenstrac]

The engine more than likely does not have a low oil pressure switch!
do not run the engine anymore,tear it down and check all bearings and pistons if you did some damage to the mains or conn rod bearings it could be minor and only have to turn down crank .0010 if you continue to run it it might wipe out the bottom end.