Electronic FEL level indicator

[SPYDERLK]

WaxMan,

Your electronic FEL level indicator has me thinking. It shows level only when the bucket is on the ground, correct?

I would like to know when the bucket is level at any height. This would be handy with my QA forks. I wonder if there is a way, electronically, to show when the bucket or forks are level at any height? Electronic level indicator with display.

Got me thinking...

Mercury switch at a well protected spot on the bucket carrier with well protected wires running to a well protected light. ... Or just use a surface on the bucket as a visual reference. Totally rugged and will inherently accomodate all situations including uneven ground instances via parallel processing capabilities conveniently available in the brain.

 

[Fallon]

Anybody know why self-leveling isn't common on CUTs? I'm assuming extra weight (and expense) for the extra hardware & geometry required for it & resulting decrease in lift capacity? Or extra electronics for the Kubota system on the smaller Grands.

 

[ovrszd]

Mercury switch at a well protected spot on the bucket carrier with well protected wires running to a well protected light. ... Or just use a surface on the bucket as a visual reference. Totally rugged and will inherently accomodate all situations including uneven ground instances via parallel processing capabilities conveniently available in the brain.

My brain must not work like yours. I can't tell "bucket level" with it elevated very accurately. And when the bucket is higher than my head I can't see the stupid little bent piece of metal on top of it. I can keep from dumping material and that's about it.

I challenge you to stick a magnetic bubble level on the bottom of your bucket, then elevate it up to a height of several feet and take your best guess as to level. Then check the bubble level. Report your findings.

 

[SPYDERLK]

My brain must not work like yours. I can't tell "bucket level" with it elevated very accurately. And when the bucket is higher than my head I can't see the stupid little bent piece of metal on top of it. I can keep from dumping material and that's about it.

Hint. Look at the bottom of the bucket when you can see it.

...Ok. Ill park on level ground and try that w/i a couple days.
larry

 

[ovrszd]

Hint. Look at the bottom of the bucket when you can see it.

...Ok. Ill park on level ground and try that w/i a couple days.
larry

Yeah, I'm anxious to hear what you find out.

Hint. You'll probably miss by quarter bubble.

 

[JD5210]

One of the reasons that I visit this site is to learn about all the creative ways the members solve problems to that end thank you WaxMan for taking the time to share what you have done. I hope some of the comments made do not stop others from posting their solutions to problems.

Another reason is to learn more about operating my tractor and operating it safely. While most of my use of my bucket is hauling dirt, gravel and firewood, the bucket is low to the ground and not all that full. Thanks to WaxMan post I knew there would be times in the future that I will need to know the bucket is level both on level and unlevel ground, after bring some firewood to the house the other day on the return trip with an empty bucket. I spent part of the trip learning if the bucket was level at various heights, a couple times stopping to get off and check. An exercise I needed to do, so again I say thank you Waxman.

 

[WaxMan]

WaxMan,

Your electronic FEL level indicator has me thinking. It shows level only when the bucket is on the ground, correct?

I would like to know when the bucket is level at any height. This would be handy with my QA forks. I wonder if there is a way, electronically, to show when the bucket or forks are level at any height? Electronic level indicator with display.

Got me thinking...

The electronic fel indicator works just like the factory rod with the bend in it. When your in the bend at any height or the green light is on at any height the bucket is level with the ground when the bucket touches the ground.
It is not like a self leveler mechanism that has arms and levers to keep the bucket level while your raising the arms.
It does however let you find level at any hight. When the green light is on with the bucket high over head it's dead level on the ground.

 

[WaxMan]

I think he has it so if the bucket is level at any height. I am looking for an inclinometer with a remote sensor that would work. Something like the attached but more tractory. Both x and y would give you roll too. The sensor would mount to the back of the SSQA frame, then just a cable to the operator station.

Tom I would be very surprised if that would work. I posted this earlier in the thread.
This is why I don't think it would work.

I think the problem you're going to find with the remote sender tilt setup is, your still going to need some sort of mechanical device to fix level even though you're not level with the ground. Just like the bend in a stock rod type indicator, once your in that bend it stays that way until you curl the bucket.
With a free floating tilt sensor on your bucket you won't be able to finally set level until your bucket is on the ground right in front of your work.

For example after dumping the bucket I set the bucket level again while I'm on the move with the Fel arms still coming down. I think with a electronic tilt sensor riding across the yard to pickup another load that light will be blinking in and out of level the whole way. Soon you'll say I had enough of these Disco lights in the cab. There has to be some sort of mechanical device that keeps it locked level with the plane of the tractor. Therefore the rod.

I don't know if you have an IPhone , but there is a tilt sensor App. Try it in your hands and see how sensitive it is, then walk around and hold it on zero. There is a damping on it which makes it even worse, makes it slow, so you have to wait for it to reach zero, then if you past zero you have to wait again to go back to zero. Since you can't see the meter you're working that curl back and forth hoping you'll stop at the right spot. Imagine that strapped to your bucket hooked to a light in your cab.

Plus on the sensor your looking for, you won't have the caution red arrow light to let know your coming up on level. Like the factory rod ,you can see your coming up to the bend.
On my rod, zero is fixed, that is the short groove. The longer milled grooves in the rod are for the red lights, that lets you know your coming up to level.

That is the reason for two arrows and one green if you past green you have to know which way to curl the bucket. So you need three lights. Not sure if a remote sensor will have that capability.

 

[WaxMan]

Yes, convenient for single purpose. Not a difficult thing to mentally correct for. I use my tractors for a lot more than piles. Mechanical paraphernalia gets scraped off. I need something bullet proof and capable in every circumstance.
larry

I really don't understand why the indicators get scraped off, in one sentence pro operators (not just you, others have said that also) say how good you are at guessing level But yet your not good enough the keep things from ripping your indicators off?

What happens that rips your indicators off? Don't get me wrong. I'm not coming down on you, I just want to know what you do wrong while operating the tractor to rip the indicator off?
The force it would take to rip off my indicator rod off would be the same force it would take to snap a fitting off the curl piston or rip a hydraulic hose off. I don't worry about either when I'm using my tractor.

 

[k0ua]

I really don't understand why the indicators get scraped off, in one sentence pro operators (not just you, others have said that also) say how good you are at guessing level But yet your not good enough the keep things from ripping your indicators off?

What happens that rips your indicators off? Don't get me wrong. I'm not coming down on you, I just want to know what you do wrong while operating the tractor to rip the indicator off?
The force it would take to rip off my indicator rod off would be the same force it would take to snap a fitting off the curl piston or rip a hydraulic hose off. I don't worry about either when I'm using my tractor.

When the one on my Kioti "wadded up" it wasn't because I hit something with it, it was because the tube and nut was not tight enough and/or no locktight was used and the tube/nut dropped down and the rod wadded itself up. The reason I did not notice it was because I was working in the dark. I just straightned the rod, and locktighted the tube and nut, and "staked" them for good measure. I have never had a problem with it since in over 200 hours and a fair portion in the brush and woods. I am not saying it would be impossible for a limb to tear one up, but I would think you would notice (if you were working in daylight) I think the Kubota model is actually a little better protected than the Kioti version.

James K0UA

 

[TomSeller]

Tom I would be very surprised if that would work. I posted this earlier in the thread.
This is why I don't think it would work.

Sorry, I had not seen that post. I was thinking of just using the inclinometer with a digital display (no lights). They use them on high end excavators for precision work. I was thinking magnetic mount and water tight so I could switch the sensor to my backhoe bucket for when I excavate in the creek or the hole I am digging fills with water (I have a water table only a few feet down). In both cases I can not see the bucket. This would give me something handy and portable from machine to machine. Not nearly as nice or refined as yours. With yours you can operate by just seeing the lights out of the corner of your eye which is a nice feature. I think the sensors are just a 4-20 mA current sensing loop with the ability to set zero. Sorry to derail the thread but it gave me an idea.

 

[WaxMan]

Sorry, I had not seen that post. I was thinking of just using the inclinometer with a digital display (no lights). They use them on high end excavators for precision work. I was thinking magnetic mount and water tight so I could switch the sensor to my backhoe bucket for when I excavate in the creek or the hole I am digging fills with water (I have a water table only a few feet down). In both cases I can not see the bucket. This would give me something handy and portable from machine to machine. Not nearly as nice or refined as yours. With yours you can operate by just seeing the lights out of the corner of your eye which is a nice feature. I think the sensors are just a 4-20 mA current sensing loop with the ability to set zero. Sorry to derail the thread but it gave me an idea.

You didn't derail the thread at all, you're keeping it going. I think they would be too sensitive for tractor use, those are for stationary machines I believe. I think the numbers would be moving so fast you would not be able to make them out.

 

[SPYDERLK]

My brain must not work like yours. I can't tell "bucket level" with it elevated very accurately. And when the bucket is higher than my head I can't see the stupid little bent piece of metal on top of it. I can keep from dumping material and that's about it.

I challenge you to stick a magnetic bubble level on the bottom of your bucket, then elevate it up to a height of several feet and take your best guess as to level. Then check the bubble level. Report your findings.

Hint. Look at the bottom of the bucket when you can see it.

...Ok. Ill park on level ground and try that w/i a couple days.
larry

OK, I just got to it using the Mahindra. ... I hadnt realized how deformed the bottom of my Loader Buddy bucket with grapple is. It has been deflected downward irregularly by force on the built in teeth under many hours of heavy use moving and piling trees and tending fire. Thus the flat surface on top of the bucket no longer has a uniform parallel relationship to the bottom. I went ahead tho, and found that on the ground, judging the levelness of the top surface varied between 0 and 1bubble [2 degrees] - all toward back tip. At a foot above ground adjustment errors maxed at about 1/4 bubble. This held up to where the top of the bucket reached my eye level at ~ 8ft. I stopped there because I would be losing register for the next 2 ft anyway - and when the distorted bucket bottom became visible, what point on the non planer surface to use to judge from and measure.
,,, I will beat that bottom into better shape with my post pounder when I get a chance. My regular loader bucket is used too. Both are strong and capable of performing their functions. Tractor forcing has just modified their shapes a bit, complicating the establishment of customary fiducials.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

I really don't understand why the indicators get scraped off, in one sentence pro operators (not just you, others have said that also) say how good you are at guessing level But yet your not good enough the keep things from ripping your indicators off?

What happens that rips your indicators off? Don't get me wrong. I'm not coming down on you, I just want to know what you do wrong while operating the tractor to rip the indicator off?
The force it would take to rip off my indicator rod off would be the same force it would take to snap a fitting off the curl piston or rip a hydraulic hose off. I don't worry about either when I'm using my tractor.

I often push trees and tree cuttings- over, under, past obstructions, pile them etc. It is a non structured activity. Many situations develop, some dangerous or potentially so that focus your attention and actions moment by moment as needed [you hope]. Its only so long til significant wood "touches" something thats out of position to be monitored or is not the prudent priority in the cicumstance. If that thing cant sustaian the blow or move its damaged or broken. You can call it doing something wrong, but the sensitizing issue is in offering yourself as a servant to fragility. Hoses are absolutely necessary, I wouldnt have them if they werent. Without redesign scrupulous routing is the only option, Still, they can move without damage and are pretty tuf when they have to take it. Iv had one fail after damage -- it made it hundreds of hrs past the life of the "level" indicator. I replaced it because there was no way to function without it. I used a better hose.
larry

 

[WaxMan]

Thats a very good answer Larry, and I understand now the way you put it. I hear you, many times on my B3030 pushing brush, things happen real fast, like bending my factory step with a branch when I'm making sure I don't slide over the banking . Branches scuffing the paint off the curl pistons snapping back at the tractor. All happening even though your careful, your eyes are somewhere else important at the time and bang there goes something. Well, said.

 

[ovrszd]

And Larry, by your last couple responses it's evident that you are harder on your equipment than most operators. Evidenced by your description of your loader bucket. So for you, visual guesstamations on level are your best bet. 1/4 bubble ain't too bad but would need further adjustment once the bucket is on the ground to get proper shaving if trying to cut dirt. If you can't maintain an indicator of some sort then that minor adjustment once on the ground is the best your gonna get. With the OP's indicator that minor adjustment is eliminated.

 

[WaxMan]

And Larry, by your last couple responses it's evident that you are harder on your equipment than most operators. Evidenced by your description of your loader bucket. So for you, visual guesstamations on level are your best bet. 1/4 bubble ain't too bad but would need further adjustment once the bucket is on the ground to get proper shaving if trying to cut dirt. If you can't maintain an indicator of some sort then that minor adjustment once on the ground is the best your gonna get. With the OP's indicator that minor adjustment is eliminated.

Now that was even better said.:thumbsup:

 

[SPYDERLK]

And Larry, by your last couple responses it's evident that you are harder on your equipment than most operators. Evidenced by your description of your loader bucket. So for you, visual guesstamations on level are your best bet. 1/4 bubble ain't too bad but would need further adjustment once the bucket is on the ground to get, proper shaving if trying to cut dirt. If you can't maintain an indicator of some sort then that minor adjustment once on the ground is the best your gonna get. With the OP's indicator that minor adjustment is eliminated.

Perhaps you are running rock hard industrials on a light tractor. ... I have never been able to shave ground with any bucket on this tractor unless it was of the nature of hard pack laced with gravel. In any other case as soon as the edge, at ground level, goes from rubbing to "shaving" the added resistance causes the tractor to lean forward dipping the edge and increasing its angle and resistance and depth and everything proceeds in an escalating fashion. The AGs and heavy weight give excellent traction but inherent compliance/softness inhibits fine grading since the blade angle and lift height are not settings but rather actively dependent on the load applied. I back up with edge downforce at high angle to grade.

Long wheelbase proportion, lower axles and hard tires help. My guess is thats where you are. I have much less issue with the Kubs, on which the axles are lower, wheelbase/loader overhang proportion is less, along with much less forcing ability.
larry

 

[ovrszd]

Perhaps you are running rock hard industrials on a light tractor. ... I have never been able to shave ground with any bucket on this tractor unless it was of the nature of hard pack laced with gravel. In any other case as soon as the edge, at ground level, goes from rubbing to "shaving" the added resistance causes the tractor to lean forward dipping the edge and increasing its angle and resistance and depth and everything proceeds in an escalating fashion. The AGs and heavy weight give excellent traction but inherent compliance/softness inhibits fine grading since the blade angle and lift height are not settings but rather actively dependent on the load applied. I back up with edge downforce at high angle to grade.

Long wheelbase proportion, lower axles and hard tires help. My guess is thats where you are. I have much less issue with the Kubs, on which the axles are lower, wheelbase/loader overhang proportion is less, along with much less forcing ability.
larry

Larry, actually I'm running 12.4x24 R1 fronts and 18.4x30 R1 rears, both radial, on a 10K lb tractor with the bucket lip 7ft ahead of the front axle, 7ft wide and can cut grade just fine. And I rely on my indicator to get me to the right starting point with little further adjustment for 90% of the tasks I perform. And I still like the OP's electronic indicator.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Larry, actually I'm running 12.4x24 R1 fronts and 18.4x30 R1 rears, both radial, on a 10K lb tractor with the bucket lip 7ft ahead of the front axle, 7ft wide and can cut grade just fine. And I rely on my indicator to get me to the right starting point with little further adjustment for 90% of the tasks I perform. And I still like the OP's electronic indicator.

Hm-mm, I was puzzled til I went and checked on mine. The overhang is only a little more but the wheelbase on mine is 7 inches less. This would allow a good bit more up down blade movement before the tires began to exert a controlling influence. Also my std bucket bottom is a 2 angle design - very good for digging but less for grading. On further thot the axle height should not be a factor causing change in the tractor attitude under load as I had originally thot.
larry