Electronic FEL level indicator

[k0ua]

I think your filed welds on the nuts are beautiful and give it a special custom look.

 

[Recoveryhill]

Very nice design, execution and expense to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

My LA524 has a level bracket on top of the bucket, well visible from the operator station. I never have an issue with leveling the bucket, observing the bracket and adjusting, by feel. So many tractor skills, well executed, require experience which results in feel for the machine. For instance grading a road with a back blade after having dropped spoil which contains roots and grass tops, dragging the load down the road and feathering the blade so as to leave the dirt behind while collecting the plant material so it can be collected with a level bucket at the end of the run and deposited off the road. The blade becomes an extension of the operator and no LED lights are going to beat the native relationship between the blade position and the operator's mind and hand on the control lever.

I too appreciate the quality of your modification but I chalk it up to your desire to pimp your tractor, which is just fine. I'll stick with the basics and develop my machine handling skills to achieve the desired results.

Respectfully submitted by a Machine Operator

 

[WaxMan]

Very nice design, execution and expense to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

My LA524 has a level bracket on top of the bucket, well visible from the operator station. I never have an issue with leveling the bucket, observing the bracket and adjusting, by feel. So many tractor skills, well executed, require experience which results in feel for the machine. For instance grading a road with a back blade after having dropped spoil which contains roots and grass tops, dragging the load down the road and feathering the blade so as to leave the dirt behind while collecting the plant material so it can be collected with a level bucket at the end of the run and deposited off the road. The blade becomes an extension of the operator and no LED lights are going to beat the native relationship between the blade position and the operator's mind and hand on the control lever.

I too appreciate the quality of your modification but I chalk it up to your desire to pimp your tractor, which is just fine. I'll stick with the basics and develop my machine handling skills to achieve the desired results.

Respectfully submitted by a Machine Operator

I appreciate the quality of your operating skills.
But that doesn't mean all who use some sort of leveling device different from what you use are less of an operator then yourself. It's not like your Not using a device to level your bucket, you are.

Machine operators that use large loaders 8 hrs per day everyday have an automatic stop at level, the hydraulics cut out at level, and the bucket won't curl anymore it stops. The heck with looking at lights, rods, and bent metal strips on the bucket. It stops automatically for them. There must be a reason for that. The reason is it makes it easier and faster to find level. An auto stop saves time. They are all experienced Machine Operators too.

Contrary to what you may think, Kubota didn't put the bent piece of metal with the sticker that says "level" on your bucket because it's for more advanced operators as you proclaim.

It was done because It was cheaper to do than the level rod indicator they put on all their more expensive tractors.
Every New Kubota from the Grand L 's the TLB's to the M series have the rod type indicators and the Top M series have the self leveling valve. Are you saying these tractors are all for the inexperienced operators?

If you're happy with that type of indicator you have, thats really Great, I'm happy for you. That's all that came with your tractor and you mastered it, Congratulations.
My preference, I like using the level rod and my indicator light over the bent flat stock on the bucket type. I had that on my B3030 I cut it off and installed the rod type. To each their own.

For my next Pimping feat, since, I already have the rod with a level on/off switch on it. Add a solenoid shut off control, add function button on the fel control lever and make a auto stop at level control just like some of the New M series tractors have, with a switch that I can turn it on and off when needed hmm? Thanks for keeping me thinking. I'll keep pimping ,You keep practicing.

 

[k0ua]

Here is my two cents on this subject. Am I an experienced enough operator to find bucket level without any aids? Darn right I am. I can tell by the way the bucket loads, the sound of the motor and the tire slippage. I can cut a pretty level And smooth grade when I really try. I have over 20 years experience doing this. Now do I look at the level indicater? Darn right I do. Why the heck wouldn't I? It just speeds up the process when you approach the pile or you are setting up to peel the top layer. Why wait until you have to feel then adjust when it doesn't cost a thing to glance at the rod as you are traveling?

 

[WaxMan]

I do consider myself a pretty good operator, certainly not as experienced as Recoveryhill and kOua Not enough years, I do have 6 years and over 700 hrs of mostly grading and fel work. It may or may not take me longer than you guys but it's a nice job when I'm done. I also do consider the bucket an extension of myself especially using the backhoe. I understand exactly what both of you are saying. But i'm always leveling my bucket on the go and adjusting as needed. I need the level rod to do that. Whether it's the right or wrong way, thats what I do and I like using it.

Just for the fun of it:
Does anyone know if this will work? For a level stop.
If I put a 12 volt hydraulic flow solenoid between the curl fel connection hose of the tractor and loader, once my "level" rod switch is activated and shuts off the hydraulic flow to the curl function, will the bucket stop and be stiff at level until the solenoid opens again? Just like it is stiff when I release the control lever? Or will there be play back and forth in the pistons?


Something like this valve, they have one with 26 gal per min also.
Northman Fluid Power Hydraulic Directional Control Valve 16.8 GPM, 4500 PSI, 2-Position, Spring Offset, 12 Volt DC Solenoid, Model# SWHG02B2D1210 | Power Solenoid| Northern Tool + Equipment

 

[Fallon]

Would you put the plumbing in series or in parallel to your normal loader valve?

If you put it in series, you would need to manually curl the bucket & your simple on/off valve between the loader valve & cylinder would trip according to the sensor. Then the system would immediately go into relief, pretty much like you limited out the cylinders. Once you heard the relief valve start squealing, that would just be a signal to let off the curl lever. I'm sure you could replace the loader valve with something detented to pop out, but that would be a bit costly & complex (and beyond my knowledge for now).

If you plumbed in an open center electronically actuated valve into the power beyond loop you could probably have both your normal loader valve & your electronic return to level valve feeding the curl cylinders. When both valves are centered, it will block the work ports & not let the cylinder move. If you were to use either valve, it would open 1 work port to pump & the other to tank, just as normal. Essentially you'd end up with a normal loader valve operating as usual & an electronic valve initiated by a button or 2 to electronically return the bucket to level. Plumbing something in parallel like that would be more brainless to use I think, but harder & more expensive to implement.

Just brainstorming ideas based on my limited knowledge of hydraulics.

 

[rblochli]

Waxman - NICE Work! wish I could do something like that, thanks for sharing.

Bob

 

[Beltman60]

WaxMan

thats what I needed :thumbsup:
hope you and your family have a nice holiday weekend

thanks

 

[WaxMan]

Would you put the plumbing in series or in parallel to your normal loader valve?

If you put it in series, you would need to manually curl the bucket & your simple on/off valve between the loader valve & cylinder would trip according to the sensor. Then the system would immediately go into relief, pretty much like you limited out the cylinders. Once you heard the relief valve start squealing, that would just be a signal to let off the curl lever. I'm sure you could replace the loader valve with something detented to pop out, but that would be a bit costly & complex (and beyond my knowledge for now).

If you plumbed in an open center electronically actuated valve into the power beyond loop you could probably have both your normal loader valve & your electronic return to level valve feeding the curl cylinders. When both valves are centered, it will block the work ports & not let the cylinder move. If you were to use either valve, it would open 1 work port to pump & the other to tank, just as normal. Essentially you'd end up with a normal loader valve operating as usual & an electronic valve initiated by a button or 2 to electronically return the bucket to level. Plumbing something in parallel like that would be more brainless to use I think, but harder & more expensive to implement.

Just brainstorming ideas based on my limited knowledge of hydraulics.

Thanks for commenting and helping out Fallon
I would like to put the valve between one of the two fel curl hoses at the quick connect. Just one quick connection. In and out of the solenoid /valve. I realize it will only stop one way.
Install an on/off button on the joystick and pilot light on the dash showing when power is on for the solenoid.

So after dumping the bucket, press the button on the joystick, power light on dash lights up to let you know the solenoid is waiting for the trigger. Once the bucket curls back up after dumping and hits my level sensor for my Fel level light (already on the tractor) . The solenoid kicks off the hydraulics to the curl and the bucket stops at level . Let go of the joystick, hit the on/off button off, go get another load.
(Nothing myself or any other operator can't do manually)

Could it be something that simple? Just seeing if I can make a simple auto level option.

Then the title of the thread would be
Electronic Fel level indicator with Auto level stop.:thumbsup:
Please I don't want to hear a good operator doesn't need this. I think we all know that.
Remember, I'm the guy who put central vacuum in my cab.
Anymore ideas? Will it work?

 

[Fallon]

Thanks for commenting and helping out Fallon
I would like to put the valve between one of the two fel curl hoses at the quick connect. Just one quick connection. In and out of the solenoid /valve. I realize it will only stop one way.
Install an on/off button on the joystick and pilot light on the dash showing when power is on for the solenoid.

So after dumping the bucket, press the button on the joystick, power light on dash lights up to let you know the solenoid is waiting for the trigger. Once the bucket curls back up after dumping and hits my level sensor for my Fel level light (already on the tractor) . The solenoid kicks off the hydraulics to the curl and the bucket stops at level . Let go of the joystick, hit the on/off button off, go get another load.
(Nothing myself or any other operator can't do manually)

Could it be something that simple? Just seeing if I can make a simple auto level option.

Then the title of the thread would be
Electronic Fel level indicator with Auto level stop.:thumbsup:
Please I don't want to hear a good operator doesn't need this. I think we all know that.
Remember, I'm the guy who put central vacuum in my cab.
Anymore ideas? Will it work?

The only way an on-off solenoid valve in 1 or both work ports between the loader valve & cylinders would be effective is if there is hydraulic pressure/flow in that line. The only time that would happen is if you manually are engaging the loader valve's curl function. Otherwise you'd just be blocking a line that's already blocked by the loader valve (or opening a solenoid on a line already blocked by the loader valve), doing nothing. I'd assume blocking either work port would work, you need pressure & a place for the oil from the other side of the cylinder to go to get stuff to move. I'd expect blocking either line would stop things. Somebody who has more practical experience than I should probably confirm that though.

To be able to hit a button & nothing else then have things return to center via your sensor gear, you'd need another entire valve & hydraulic supply circuit from my understanding. The work ports on your existing loader valve & your new solenoid operated valve should be closed & able to keep cylinders from collapsing. So you should be able to put a T between work port A on the loader valve & the solenoid valve, then another T between the 2 B ports. If you operate either valve it should open 1 work port to pressure & 1 to tank, properly moving the cylinder.

Be careful of taking advice from somebody who has yet to finish his first hydraulic project & can't tell the difference between 3/8" & 1/2" fittings.

I'm a nerd & have recently moved from computers to tractors as my tinkering obsession. I see value in doing cool things for engineering sake, regardless of if I have the skill or not.

 

[TomSeller]

Very nice design, execution and expense to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

My LA524 has a level bracket on top of the bucket, well visible from the operator station. I never have an issue with leveling the bucket, observing the bracket and adjusting, by feel. So many tractor skills, well executed, require experience which results in feel for the machine. For instance grading a road with a back blade after having dropped spoil which contains roots and grass tops, dragging the load down the road and feathering the blade so as to leave the dirt behind while collecting the plant material so it can be collected with a level bucket at the end of the run and deposited off the road. The blade becomes an extension of the operator and no LED lights are going to beat the native relationship between the blade position and the operator's mind and hand on the control lever.

I too appreciate the quality of your modification but I chalk it up to your desire to pimp your tractor, which is just fine. I'll stick with the basics and develop my machine handling skills to achieve the desired results.

Respectfully submitted by a Machine Operator

When I push into a load of brush with my loader like this I can't always see the attachment. I could, however, see the glow of lights through the brush. Or alternately, mount the lights closer to the operator station. Really cool would be an added inclinometer. I believe Waxman's solution to be for a problem that does exist.

 

[dfkrug]

Does anyone know if this will work? For a level stop.
If I put a 12 volt hydraulic flow solenoid between the curl fel connection hose of the tractor and
loader, once my "level" rod switch is activated and shuts off the hydraulic flow to the curl function,
will the bucket stop and be stiff at level until the solenoid opens again? Just like it is stiff when I
release the control lever? Or will there be play back and forth in the pistons?

Very nice work, WAX. It is nice to see such a practical device made and installed with such
good workmanship. I can esp see this helping on snowy nights, as you say. (I, too, have
pimped out my tractor with numerous mods.)

As for the hydraulic limiter you want to use: you can install a 12V spool-type solenoid
valve on one side (curl or dump) of your bkt cylinder circuit, and that would stop your
curl action when your switch hits the detent in your rod. I use one-sided solenoid valves
to do a similar function on my 4-in-1 bkt and hydraulic hoe thumb.

You can use a very small valve, however, like the HydroForce valves I used. Use a
normally-open valve, and avoid the more common poppet-type valves out there.

Go for it, and let's see what you come up with.

 

[Fallon]

It would be pretty easy to wire up. Normally open hydraulic control solenoid wired with your level sensor & a push button wired in series. Push the button & engage the loader valve, things start moving. When your level sensor trips & closes the circuit, it would close the valve & stop the bucket. The relief valve would probably start whining prompting you to let go of the loader valve. When you let go of the button the solenoid would open up returning things to normal loader valve operation.

If you wanted it completely automatic with no need to manually manipulate the loader valve, you'd have to put in another entire electrically operated valve (with 2 ports, 1 for pressure & 1 for tank).

Attached is a quick sketch, the series option would be on the left, parallel on the right.



As long as 1 valve in series was closed there should be no movement. Both valves in the parallel option would have to be closed (which they should be when centered) to keep things from moving.

You could probably tweak the engagement point of your sensor to compensate for any delays in the valve activating. & what not. I don't have enough experience to say if 1 or 2 valves would be required for the series (left) option or other issues.

 

[WaxMan]

Very nice work, WAX. It is nice to see such a practical device made and installed with such
good workmanship. I can esp see this helping on snowy nights, as you say. (I, too, have
pimped out my tractor with numerous mods.)

As for the hydraulic limiter you want to use: you can install a 12V spool-type solenoid
valve on one side (curl or dump) of your bkt cylinder circuit, and that would stop your
curl action when your switch hits the detent in your rod. I use one-sided solenoid valves
to do a similar function on my 4-in-1 bkt and hydraulic hoe thumb.

You can use a very small valve, however, like the HydroForce valves I used. Use a
normally-open valve, and avoid the more common poppet-type valves out there.

Go for it, and let's see what you come up with.

Thanks dfrug. is this the valve your talking about?
HYDRA FORCE 12 VDC N.O. SOLENOID VALVE
It's nice and small, I could put a quick disconnect on it and sandwich it between my fel connection.
65 bucks or so is worth the experiment.

 

[Fallon]

"When de-energized, the valve allows bidirectional flow from port 2 to port 1. When energized, the valve�s poppet closes to block flow from port 2 to port 1. In this mode, the cartridge allows free reverse flow from port 1 to port 2, after overcoming the solenoid force (50-150 psi)."

That would function as a 1 way valve when energized. Your return to level would work when dumping the bucket towards level, but not raising to level (or the other way around, depending on which line you put it on). You'd end up needing 2 of those. I didn't see something that looked right when I did a quick look.

 

[WaxMan]

When I push into a load of brush with my loader like this I can't always see the attachment. I could, however, see the glow of lights through the brush. Or alternately, mount the lights closer to the operator station. Really cool would be an added inclinometer. I believe Waxman's solution to be for a problem that does exist.

Thanks Tom :thumbsup: Inclinometer is on the drawing board. Same with Exhaust Stack, running lights and fridge.

 

[creekbend]

I, somwhow missed this thread. Nice work and innovative.

 

[dfkrug]

is this the valve your talking about?
HYDRA FORCE 12 VDC N.O. SOLENOID VALVE

That is not what you want; it is one of the common poppet valves that I mentioned above.
I bought a new one (Sterling) just like that on eBay for about $35 and experimented with it. One
way only, or buy 2 valves, as FALLON says.

You are better off just ordering what you want from a solenoid valve maker's disti.

Like this:

 

[SPYDERLK]

Pretty. Exposed. Fragile.

 

[ovrszd]

Very nice design, execution and expense to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

My LA524 has a level bracket on top of the bucket, well visible from the operator station. I never have an issue with leveling the bucket, observing the bracket and adjusting, by feel. So many tractor skills, well executed, require experience which results in feel for the machine. For instance grading a road with a back blade after having dropped spoil which contains roots and grass tops, dragging the load down the road and feathering the blade so as to leave the dirt behind while collecting the plant material so it can be collected with a level bucket at the end of the run and deposited off the road. The blade becomes an extension of the operator and no LED lights are going to beat the native relationship between the blade position and the operator's mind and hand on the control lever.

I too appreciate the quality of your modification but I chalk it up to your desire to pimp your tractor, which is just fine. I'll stick with the basics and develop my machine handling skills to achieve the desired results.

Respectfully submitted by a Machine Operator

Wow, that was quite a rant.

I'm a machine operator too. I'm proficient with a Tractor, Backhoe, Grader, Dozer, Excavator, Trencher and Dump Truck. I'm sure we have a lot in common as far as mechanical/technical skills.

Where we might differ is in our respect for the differences in Machine Operators. While you are obviously proficient and an expert in mastering bucket leveling with your antiquated bent piece of flat metal, it also brings to light that you speed of execution might be a bit lacking. I'm happy with this type of inefficiency if you are.

I think the problem here is that Waxman's technical engineering skills far out perform your ability to comprehend. Waxman is a Gentleman and a Master Craftsman. I'm sure he will excuse your inadequacies and still consider you a "Machine Operator".