Electricity Price Increases

   / Electricity Price Increases #301  
That's an increasingly frequent subject for discussion in our neck of the woods, and I think a real issue, though it isn't clear to me that there is a single solution.

If you ever want grid power, and I personally do because we can't realistically self generate enough power over a winter storm or during bad fires, then it seems to me that some sort of fee is in order for a grid interconnection. Commercially, it comes under the category of a "demand reservation charge", which is the maximum allowable amount of power that can be drawn ever. Basically, the company pays to reserve enough power "just in case". We pay one currently on an ag meter. My experience is that commercially it is priced up around the cost of leasing a standby generator, so it can get to be something of a toss up budget wise for a company.

The trend here is to raise the fixed fees, aka monthly meter charge, to pay for the costs of the transmission and distribution of electricity. So solar owners pay something towards the grid costs. Whether it is the right number is beyond what I know. An unintended consequence of raising the fixed electrical costs is that the power cost as a fraction of the bill goes down, reducing the incentive to conserve electricity. Historically, California has a trend of steadily reduced kWh/person/yr since the mid-seventies, but that has to end sooner or later. A fixed fee is also somewhat of a regressive tax, so complaints on that front are being vocalized.

If we were to add any additional solar would likely to be set up to maximize winter production, with panels much closer to the vertical than a typical roof mount solar. TBD at the moment as the utility doesn't seem to know its own mind about solar and batteries at the moment and what is or not permissible. Such is life, at least with this utility.

All the best,

Peter
I’m considering turning my panels to max the afternoon sun as peek pricing starts at 4 and in summer it can be daylight for many hours after.

Also, mornings, especially winter mornings, can be overcast… no rays to catch.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #302  
I am all for renewables, just not mandated for the consumer. Texas is heavily invested in solar and wind. Yesterday at peak sunshine shows over 61% of generation was solar and wind. There is also generation capacity for when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow. Keeping those sources idled still has a cost associated with it.

New battery storage facilities are coming online. There is one just south of me that recently came online. The picture shows it under construction in December 2024.

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   / Electricity Price Increases #303  
This may help a little.

PGE's lobbyists will no longer be funded from customer rate increases.


"Investor-owned utilities have been inflating ratepayer utility bills, and using these funds on political lobbying efforts and promotional advertisement. While Californians continue to struggle with the state’s high cost of living, made worse by the nation’s second-highest utility rates." "Only behind Hawaii."
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #304  
Lobbying is an interesting issue. Why is it done? Because for many companies, the return on investment from lobbying is much higher than improving products or increasing efficiency. It's not the ideal situation but from a shareholder viewpoint it's the right thing to do and in some cases it's an advantage for the consumer. Who's fault is it? Is it the company for taking advantage of it or is it the government that has so much control over the operation of the company?
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #305  
This may help a little.

PGE's lobbyists will no longer be funded from customer rate increases.


"Investor-owned utilities have been inflating ratepayer utility bills, and using these funds on political lobbying efforts and promotional advertisement. While Californians continue to struggle with the state’s high cost of living, made worse by the nation’s second-highest utility rates." "Only behind Hawaii."
We, the customers will still pay. The fox guarding the henhouse!
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #306  
We often see that renewables are cheaper than other sources. However, you very seldom see any explanation of the basis for that conclusion. Windmills and solar cells are cheaper on an installed megawatt capacity basis than any other option. However, when you look at actual power generated, they only generate about 1/3 the annual production of fossil or nuclear sources. Also, inherent in installation of renewables is the need to install and maintain reliable other sources which are then underutilized. The cost of that unused backup capacity is never considered in the cost of renewable energy. In economic terms this is an externality that should be included.
Wind and natural gas are excellent when paired. Wind is the cheapest to build, natural gas is the second cheapest. Natural gas turbines are easy to start up and shut down. Their down time does not cause wear to the turbines, so the down time does not reduce the productive hours of the equipment. Meanwhile, wind turbines can produce power with no fuel costs, which runs about 8 cents/kwh for natural gas. A 1 mw wind turbine thus saves about $80,000/hour in fuel costs, assuming it is running. If it has a 30% duty cycle, that is still $24,000/hour over the lifetime of the windmill. Construction cost of wind and NG generating capacity is comparable.

Residential energy has certainly become more complex. In the old days they hooked you up and you paid the bill. Now there is a move to electricity as the dominant utility with PV and possibly battery storage at the end user and multiple sources from the suppliers. I am a little astonished at the amount of industrial solar being built.

 
   / Electricity Price Increases #307  
Wind and natural gas are excellent when paired. Wind is the cheapest to build, natural gas is the second cheapest. Natural gas turbines are easy to start up and shut down. Their down time does not cause wear to the turbines, so the down time does not reduce the productive hours of the equipment. Meanwhile, wind turbines can produce power with no fuel costs, which runs about 8 cents/kwh for natural gas. A 1 mw wind turbine thus saves about $80,000/hour in fuel costs, assuming it is running. If it has a 30% duty cycle, that is still $24,000/hour over the lifetime of the windmill. Construction cost of wind and NG generating capacity is comparable.

Residential energy has certainly become more complex. In the old days they hooked you up and you paid the bill. Now there is a move to electricity as the dominant utility with PV and possibly battery storage at the end user and multiple sources from the suppliers. I am a little astonished at the amount of industrial solar being built.

Tiered pricing and rate plans were the Camels nose under the tent.

The increase in cooling demand focused peak use to hot weather which often meshes with solar production.

Several with plans to grid tie found home power production more economical than the cost of grid infrastructure…

Almost seems like the promise of energy so inexpensive through nuclear was never made… or nothing more than the product of wild imagination.

I’m very pleased with my home solar but still have a natural gas bill each month…
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #308  
I am a little astonished at the amount of industrial solar being built.
I remember reading years ago that, while residential scale solar is and would remain a financial loser, utility-scale solar was already profitable a decade or more ago.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #309  
I remember reading years ago that, while residential scale solar is and would remain a financial loser, utility-scale solar was already profitable a decade or more ago.
For the ROI, I think that a lot depends on your local power costs, local construction/installation costs, and local solar availability. For us the locally high power costs dominated, as did our high installation cost, and relatively poor solar availability. For us, we decided to install solar when my ROI suggested a 7 year return on investment, including capital costs. Electricity rates that rose faster than projected drove the actual ROI to 4.5 years.

I can't say it often enough, but I think the economics of installing solar is hyper local. I've lived places where overcast skies predominate for much of the year, and that is going to make solar a lot less economical for most folks.

That doesn't mean that there might be non-economic reasons to install solar, e.g. grid independence, reducing a fossil fuel footprint, or improved resilience. YMMV (a lot).

All the best, Peter
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #310  
...my ROI suggested a 7 year return on investment, including capital costs. Electricity rates that rose faster than projected drove the actual ROI to 4.5 years.
That's a good benchmark, but was this factoring in any incentives of tax breaks derived from the installation, or actual full invoice? I think the paper that called it a financial loser at the residential scale was using full invoice costs, knowing that even if you're not paying for it out of your own pocket, the community is as taxpayers.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #311  
I hosted some visiting engineers from Germany 20 years ago and was asked why widespread solar was not a thing here in California as it was catching on in Germany which does not have near as many sun hours.

Now northern latitudes like Seattle have solar gaining.

Maybe the cost per Watt dropping plus incentives/regulatory changes turned the tide?

With my electricity cost zeroed I need to focus on the thousand dollars each year spent on natural gas…

Maybe a dual fuel water heater when it comes time to replace?
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #312  
I looked into residential solar for rentals but the cost per kW is much higher as some incentives are limited to owner occupied single family when I checked.

Brother wanted to have solar at the farm but the cookie cutter single family residential rules also do not apply…
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #314  
In part it may be fixation on short term thinking as opposed to long term?

I see this play out everyday… good enough, I don’t care what happens 10 years from now, selling the place when I retire, etc.

It may be cultural as far as short term thinking.

I saw this with my friends in Germany living in the same family home hundreds of years old where longevity and quality guided expenditures… investing for the future.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #315  
If solar economics depend on government program structure and rules, is it really economic?
There are many government programs out there for all kinds of stuff.

For example, in 1989, we had 2,150 trees purchased, planted and side sprayed for $265 after the government reimbursed us for 75% of the cost. It was an erosion control program. Should I not have taken advantage of that?

Our county has homestead property tax exemptions. Should we not take advantage of that?

No one has to claim the child deductions on their taxes.

No one has to take unemployment if they lose their job.

Should they not do that? I don't think that's a good decision.

Those are just a few examples.

So, to answer the question 'is it really economic'? For one's own bottom line, the answer is yes. That's what the programs are designed to do.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #316  
There are many government programs out there for all kinds of stuff.

For example, in 1989, we had 2,150 trees purchased, planted and side sprayed for $265 after the government reimbursed us for 75% of the cost. It was an erosion control program. Should I not have taken advantage of that?

Our county has homestead property tax exemptions. Should we not take advantage of that?

No one has to claim the child deductions on their taxes.

No one has to take unemployment if they lose their job.

Should they not do that? I don't think that's a good decision.

Those are just a few examples.

So, to answer the question 'is it really economic'? For one's own bottom line, the answer is yes. That's what the programs are designed to do.
Very good examples. And some further points is that ALL energy sources are subsidized in the U.S. including mining, oil and gas, and renewable energy sources.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #317  
ALL energy sources are subsidized in the U.S. including mining, oil and gas, and renewable energy sources.
At least partly true, but you're opening a can of worms there, as at least some of what is being cited in such claims are standard tax breaks available to all manufacturing businesses. Very muddy waters, indeed.

One thing I've learned from studying history and many past wars, is that the more you learn about any conflict, the harder it becomes to tell the "good guys" from the "bad guys". The Devil is in the details, and perspective is everything. I think the same goes for most debates on energy production, there's good and bad in all aspects, and all sides are at least a little dishonest in curating the numbers that support their perspective.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #318  
We have an abundance of oak and the annual storm fall could provide heat and cooking for many plus reduce the native fuel load…

As a kid remember dads friends always asking to gather wood…

Can’t give it away now because wood energy is for all intent forbidden…

Maybe because no way to tax?
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #319  
Can’t give it away now because wood energy is for all intent forbidden…
Wood heat is still very popular around here. I burn 6 - 10 cords of hardwoods every year, as do many others around me. Some only fire their stoves when it's blistering cold out, and then there's others running OWB's year-round or at least October thru April. Those of us running free-standing wood stoves as a primary heat source are in the minority, but still not all that uncommon.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #320  
No solid fuel burn bans or prohibitions on installing wood stoves, fireplaces, etc. where you are?

It’s code here and was expanding to gas fired appliances until a recent pause.
 

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