Driveway Problem

[Dahammer72]

Hi, guys. I'd like to get some input on a driveway problem I have. The driveway is almost 2 years old and is about 600 long. The soil is heavy clay. I call it wax, as it sticks to everything it touches like glue when it's wet. When it's dry, you need a jackhammer to make a dent in it. The driveway was established by simply spreading about a 6" layer of crushed limestone (w/fines) on top of the existing compacted soil. Since that time, I placed probably another 4 or so of 1/2 clean limestone on top. Most of the driveway is fine and holds up fairly well. However, I have about a 100' section that is giving me lots of problems. It rutted out badly through the winter. Ruts probably got 12" or more deep in places. I went in with a tractor and blade, leveled it up, set the crowns back, and then had a 18 wheeler load of 3/4" clean limestone spread over top of it. That was last month and all that rock is gone and I'm back to a muddy clay surface on top. So now, I need to find a solution instead of just keeping on throwing money at it.

What I had in mind at first was to just have some large crushed limestone (say 3") hauled in and drive on that for awhile and then go over it with smaller crushed limestone (w/fines) this fall before winter sets in. But I'm not so sure that's the best way to do it. If you think about it, the large clean rock allows water to penetrate it to the clay subsoil which turns to muck when wet. And if it's wet, seems to me that the limestone will just get pushed right down into it and I'd end up back in the same spot all over again. Prehaps it would be better to put down a large crushed limestone with the fines, which would help seal off the clay I'd think. Then spread clean rock on top once it's set up. That's basically what I did to start with, but I didn't use large rock. Which way works the best?

Also, I should note that the driveway as is will stand up to automobile traffic as is, other than it having a muddy surface on bad area when wet. My problem has more to do with the fact that I'm driving a 30 ton truck (tandem weighs in at 21.5 ton) in and out once every day. I back the truck down the driveway with the push and tag axles raised, so it gets the full 21.5 ton tandem once a day.

Whatever I put on it, I need to be able to work it with a tractor and straight blade, so I don't want to go too big. But at the same time I need it to hold the truck up, which obviously the smaller stone isn't doing. Thanks.

 

[Egon]

Check out the subsoil drainage situation. That is probably where your problem lies.

 

[ScottK]

Asphalt.

 

[wushaw]

You have a drainage problem in that area.

 

[archeryantny]

Geotextile fabric. It will keep the mud and stone separated. It doesnt matter how much stone you put down that clay will swallow it all. There are town roads with a 2 ft road base around here that still get muddy this time of year.
http://www.usfabricsinc.com/products/wovenstabilization.shtml

 

[deputyrpa]

Great! I don't have to start my own thread!

I had the same issue Dahammer - we could be neighbors. Heavy clay, no perc to it.

I solved it (somewhat) by putting down construction fabric and putting 6" of shale on it. It worked fine for a couple of years. The problem was that my grading was done by my loggers. They're great loggers, but really suck on a dozer. I had remnant low spots that held water for...oh....about a week after a rain. The shale started to geologically revert back to clay....and you know the rest. Proper grading is the key. You cant let water sit on clay if you intend to drive on it.

My farm roads are constant maintenance, with grading, water turnouts and detention basins.

The solution for my driveway is going to be 2"+ cobbles that I am buying from a local pit across the valley (sure....they have gravel over there!). First things first. Tonight I started the job of ripping up the shale and fabric on the problem side of my loop. It's really a job for a dozer, but I went after it with the box blade. I did admirably, but before I go further, I need my buddy to help me shoot elevations and......bring is JD450 dozer. After proper grading, I'll lay down some more fabric and then 8" of cobble, tracked in with the dozer.

Here's some pics. That's solid ash tray clay under there boys! My pointer is providing technical assistance, of course. I think he whizzed on it to help soften it....

 

[Dahammer72]

The drainage I have been working on and I've gotten it temporarily fixed to a degree and it has gotten alot better as a result. I'm going to install some drainage basins and piping soon, but for now I just turned the water off the drive with a ditch.

But to make matters worse there is a pond on one side of the problem area that runs the entire length of the problem spot. The pond is close to the drive as well, only about 10' from it, so it contributes to the moisture. Over the weekend I installed a drainage pipe in the pond so that I could lower the water level. I lower it about 10", I'm hoping that helps too. The thing is the drive is 2 years old, and nothing has changed over that time frame and it's never been a problem until this past winter and current spring.

As to the geotextile fabric. I'm going to investigate that some more and see if I can find some of it locally, but I've never seen it used around here, so I'm not sure where to look for it.

Asphalt would be awesome if I could pass around a hat and get you guys to help me out. Seriously though, unless I did it to highway spec probably 8" to 12" thick, it wouldn't last very long under this truck I don't think.

But back to my main question. Is it better to put large clean rock underneath or just use the base with the fines all the way? When the state DOT builds roads around here, they just use the stuff with the fines in it. I've never seen them use large clean rock. However, they also always put down good dirt and compact it too.

 

[Kays Supply]

I have driven over new road / driveways that had the fabric under them with my 1 ton truck loaded. It feels like driving on a water bed , but I never went through.

 

[kemary]

The geotextile fabric is available from most oil field supply companies. The local drilling company did a test of this fabric on an oil access road. The fabric comes in 300' rolls and costs about $1 per foot. In there test, the fabric saved 100 tons of stone for each 300' roll over the first 2 years the road is in use. The fabric is 12' wide. I used this fabric on my new drive which was all clay and it has held up great with cement and block trucks running over it. In one very wet spot the fabric popped up to the surface when a brine truck ran over it after it had been raining for a week. This was about 1' wide by 3' long but the fabric did not tear and no mud came thru.

 

[mjncad]

I second the suggestion of using a geotextile under the road. One brand is Mirafi; but it looks like they have been bought out as www.mirafi.com redirected me to TenCate - Geosynthetics - TenCate Geosynthetics

 

[CurlyDave]

I think your problem has a lot more to do with that big truck than your driveway.

I would think long & hard about finding some way to park the truck next to the road and take a car up & down the driveway.

Even better yet, take a look at one of those new Kioti UTVs. For $10 k you can solve your problem by buying a new toy. Leave the truck out by the highway and use the UTV to get to the house. I suspect you will put a lot more than $10k into your driveway, and it would be a lot less fun that the Kioti.

 

[Egon]

So the problem area lies alongside the pond. What is the slope of the ground on the side away from the pond?

 

[Kays Supply]

CurlyDave, Where were you when I decided to put blacktop on my drive. I have been trying to think of a reason to get another little Kie class truck.

 

[Airic]

So, the key word I always hear is "drainage". Keeping the roadway as dry as possible with proper run off. I believe this comment because all of the areas of my drive that have more water retained are the areas of issue for me. I have a gradual hill that directs water toward the drive in some areas. I'm looking at building in a ditch on both and/or one side of the drive to direct water off and away. I've attached a sketch to illustrate a cross section. What is the optimal distance vertically between bottom of ditch to road surface and angle of deg. of ditch? What is the proper fall within the ditch for proper run off (i.e. 1" per 8'?). Does it vary by soil type or is there a general rule?

 

[tatra805]

to answer OP his question about the big size rocks: NO

You will only, just as you are doing now with the smaller size rocks/gravel, push it in the clay.

Your problems sound very familiar.

I agree on the geotextile things but just dont see how good it will be fighting with that truckload. I would never use it for driveways.

We have similar problems in our region and it is a habbit to order a load of clean gravel every year after winter to top dress our driveways. Just, i'm an immigrant here and i hate topdressing with $$$ every year (even more as i do hate the manual labour involved with gravel). So, i did it a little different.

We rented a backhoe and took about 10" from the top layer (so the muddy stuff was gone and you are back at firm clay level).
We then dumped in the most unwanted mix of rocks, gravel and stonedust. This is the stuff nobody wants and much cheaper than a nice calibrated mix.

The point being that this rough mix makes for a very hard layer which does not allow water to go flow through but stay on top of it. (so ask for a lot of dust in your mix) and because it settles as a crust it also spreads the load more evenly.

If you can grade this mixture a bit you are making a flowdirection for the rainwater. (or you put your drainage tubing under this layer if you have groundwater issues)

then we added mix on top, like 3", as a finishing layer. (there i used small pebbles and gra as you can grade them much easier, that was also an unconventional move)

When it was raining the water flowed through the toplayer and then on top of the mix layer to the sides of the driveway.

If you allow water to go to your clay layer it will weaken the clay and thus allowing the clay to absorb any toplayer when you put pressure on it.

When we build our house and had to put pavement for a parking and driveway the construction company took off the 3" and left the bottom layer as it was. He could not make it a better underlayer, only make it worse.

Oh, and needless to say that all types of gravel consisting of round shaped pieces (pebbles) are a no-go as they never stabilize.

2cents only

 

[Mundy]

We grade roads at 1/4" per foot (2%) and the shoulder area we try to get at 3/4" per foot (6%)
This way the road drains well and then once the water hits the shoulder it runs faster. This helps prevent soft edges of the road.

As for the ditch we never cut any shallower than 2' and use 3' of side slope for every 1' of depth.


In my area we build everything on clay. Most of the time it is wet and will move when driven on so we use alot of Geotextile and alot of "oversize stone" We call it 1"by3". We usually place a layer of the 1"by3" down on the clay so the equipment can get across to work. Then a layer of Geotextile with more 1"by3" on top of it. If possible the 1"by3" should have drain tile placed at its edge and outlet to a lower area so it will not set full of water and soak into the clay below. Then I like another layer of geotextile on top of the 1"by3" to keep the top gravel seperate and provide another bridge of fabric. I have done this layer method many times over the years while building county roads.

Some of the places near lakes around here we have done 4 or more alternating layers of fabric and stone to build the road. One of these areas that come to mind, it was hard to even walk across the cut area before the first layer went down. That was 10 years ago and the road is still there and several thosand cars and trucks per day drive on it.

 

[Dahammer72]

I think your problem has a lot more to do with that big truck than your driveway.

I would think long & hard about finding some way to park the truck next to the road and take a car up & down the driveway.

Even better yet, take a look at one of those new Kioti UTVs. For $10 k you can solve your problem by buying a new toy. Leave the truck out by the highway and use the UTV to get to the house. I suspect you will put a lot more than $10k into your driveway, and it would be a lot less fun that the Kioti.

Yeah, the truck is most definately the problem. Remove it from the equation and the problem is gone permenantly. Unfortunately, parking it at the street is not an option. I could relocate it to somewhere else if I can find someone willing to allow me to park it on their property, but I want to try to fix the road to where it will support the weight first. As to the $10k, I can't put that into it regardless. So far, I have 7 18 wheeler loads of rock in it or around $2800 in 2 years.

I think it's just a matter of putting the right material on it at this point to fix it. I'm just not sure what material to put. If I can keep the clay dry, it's solid as concrete, so that's the key. That's why I'm asking about the large washed stone without the fines, since it seems to me that would allow the water to get to the clay versus keeping it dry. Maybe I should do both. First the large clean stone, pack it down good and then immediately place the smaller rock with the fines in it on top to seal it off. That's 2 truck loads at $400 a load. I can stand that, if that's the way to do it. But if it would be better to just put twice as much smaller stone (say up to 1 1/2") with the fines down and skip the larger washed stone, then I'd rather do that. I guess what I'm saying is I'm tried of spending money experimenting with this and that and just want to do something that will last a few years. If I could find railroad ballast reasonable, I'd use that. But so far I haven't found a source. The limestone quarry where I've been buying the rock doesn't have it at that quarry. I've got to make some calls to see if I can find it elsewhere.

As to the pond, the grade is probably an inch per foot from the driveway to the water level. So the water doesn't sit on driveway long at all. The problem was that back in the winter, before I fixed the drainage issues, I didn't fix the ruts has they started to develop. As a result they got deeper and deeper, filled up with water when it rained, and that just saturated the soil. Now that I've fixed them and the water issues, it doesn't rut now except in couple small spots where it is still damp and then the truck only goes down an inch or 2. But I can see the ground rolling under the wheels in these areas, so I know it's still wet deeper down.

 

[deputyrpa]

I just finished grading for proper runoff. Immediate runoff will be sheet flow across a (future) grassed area, and then to the ditching adjacent to my main farm road (an abandoned town road). The moisture of the clay is perfect - just enough to pack nicely without that powdery texture. Tomorrow morning I'm getting 2+ stone. I have decided to not put fabric down, for as long as the water doesn't sit on it, the stone will hold up nicely. Some areas of the farm roads have had stone w/o fabric doing its job for over 20 years. Not to mention that I'm getting about 660 tons of stone for stockpiling, so I'll have extra to add as needed. The material price was good. I also have miles of farm and woods roads to maintain, so having a stockpile is key to keep farm operations seamless.

I'll take some pics in the morning of the program.

 

[deputyrpa]

Well...the job is done. Here are some pics. We put about six to eight inches down. My buddy really worked his JD 450 hard. This large stuff is a bear on equipment. I did do some fluff work with the Kioti. It's going to take a while for the cobbles to settle in, and I may have to top-dress it with some crusher run before my wife breaks a heel. The truckers ran over the freshly cobbled surface to get to the stockpile area, so it packed down pretty well. They were running about 78k pounds loaded, one guy said.

The stockpile is one half of the total piled up. There are 5 or 6 loads by one of my tractor roads.

 

[LostInTheWoods]

Dahammer,

Have you looked into chip seal (also called tar and chip seal)? I really don't know a lot about it, especially how well it holds under the weight of your truck, but I have seen it used on several drives. It's basically a base layer of asphalt with finely graded aggregate. It is significantly less expensive than asphalt. Might want to check around your area, could be an option.