ditchwitch or excavator?

[bigballer]

I am going to dig a trench for water and power (to wellhead) and it needs to be no less than 4" wide and 24" inches deep and it will be 350' long through open area. There are rocks anywhere from golfball to soccerball size in my land. My choices of tools are a 13hp 24" ditchwith or a 5000lb mini-excavator with a 10" bucket. Both cost about the same per day, the difference is delivery/pickup of the mini...

which one would I be happier with?? which will do a better job? btw, I have not used either of these before.

cheers,
bigballer

 

[clundog]

The ditch witch will probably get the job done faster and back filling will be easier as the dirt will be ground up instead of dug up (chunks if you have any clay). I used a Vermeer treching machine about the same size as the ditch witch you described for about the same depth and distance and was pleased with the results, plus I got to use my fel for back filling. The only problems I could see would be the soccer ball size rocks, when you hit one with the machine you'll know it and might have to dig it out (by hand?), the softball size should come right out depending on soil type. The excavator would work also it would just take longer IMO. Good Luck whichever route you go!

 

[AndyMA]

I am going to dig a trench for water and power (to wellhead) and it needs to be no less than 4" wide and 24" inches deep and it will be 350' long through open area. bigballer

Doesn't it freeze where you are? Around here New England, 4' is minimum depth for year round water. Frost line many times exceeds 36"

That being said, I've got plenty of time using both excavators and trenchers. If you have a lot of rocks I ususally need to use both.

Andy

 

[woodstick]

I tried using a ditchwitch when trenching for water lines on our farm in PA. It was totally useless due to the number of rocks we encountered. Unless your soil is rock-free, I would go with the excavator. That way you know that you can complete the job without having to rent a second machine. I wish that someone had told ME this ten years ago.

 

[Highbeam]

The best thing about water line is that you can go around rocks if you hit them. I would recommend and have used a ditch witch for that depth and that type of soil for irrigation lines plus 110 power to a shed for the controller and RV hookup. You should seek another rental place. Using the ditch witch at maximum depth is not much fun. There are other larger models that go to 4 feet and usually a little wider. The bigger the machine the less it will bounce all over the place and the easier it will be to do the trenching.

It takes a while to become good at excavator trenching. If you were good at it and could finish the job quickly then you could walk around pulling stumps to use up the rental time. The excavator will be harder on the landscape than the little trencher.

It freezes here on the wet side of WA but only a few inches into the ground and only during the coldsnap. The chosen depth is likely more for protection from tractor implements and to meet codes on the electrical.

So you run 350 feet plus to the well and then 100 feet plus to the pump. Doesn't that require a huge gauge of wire? Or are you able to get by with the standard color coded well pump wiring "kit". Are you using conduit? PE pipe? This has the makings of a great project post with pics since most rural folks have wells.

 

[barticus73]

I used a 4' x 6" walk behind ditch witch to install about 600' of water line to my pastures in western Pa. Every time I hit a rock that machine would literally lift me off my feet!! I never ran a machine that beat me up so much. Little did I know, the same rental company rents a ride on ditchwitch like a tractor that reduces the bouncing around plus it had a small backhoe mounted on the other end and a blade for backfilling. The kicker was the rental coast was almost the same. I couldn't believe they didn't offer it to me when I asked to rent a ditchwch. Oh well, I guess it builds character!

 

[bigballer]

It sounds like a 36"-48" ditchwitch is likely the best option, didn't think about running the 24" at max depth.

The trench will have 1" 200psi poly line and the wire will be direct buried UF to the pump at the wellhead pitless adapter. The pump motor is a 3 phase unit (variable speed drawing 4amps, max) which is controlled by a computer in the wellhouse. Wiring into the controller will be single phase 230v which will be converted to 3 phase. Per the pump contractor and Goulds site, the electrical run for my length can use 12AWG on a 15amp 230v ckt.

I will post some pictures of the project as it develops. Thanks for the input so far..

cheers,
bigballer

 

[3RRL]

That's excellent advice Highbeam. You covered all the bases. The only thing I'd worry about are the larger rocks. If you can't go around them, you'll need a heavy prybar to get them out of the way. Otherwise, it's way faster and cleaner than a trencher.

 

[drm]

I would recommend using the largest ride on Ditch Witch that you can rent. Call around to the rental yards and the construction equipment yards like Nations Rent.

I used a track mounted Toro Dingo with the 6"x36" trencher attachment to dig a 50' and a 10' each trench 24" deep. Well within the abilities of this machine. It took 1 1/2 hours to dig the 50' trench which had sandstone type shale rocks mixed in the sandy clay and another hour with a demolition hammer to break the big one I could not budge. The 10' trench took less than 10 minutes but this area had a dark organic soil with very few small rocks.

At the other extreme, I hired out the trenching for the relocation (a long and costly story) of my utilities. The excavator used an extremely large ride on trencher capable of digging over 4’ deep. He dug a trench 1200 feet long by 6” wide x 48” to 52” deep in about 4 hours with one helper on the ground pushing football+ sized rocks out of the way. It was nearly effortless for him going through good organic dirt in the front, dry rocky clay up to the top, soggy wet clay, then he had to work a bit through the weathered broken shale, and finally through the sandy rocky clay. It was so amazing to watch this that I got virtually no work done on my tractor that morning.

Based on my experience go BIG! As a bonus the trencher will grind up the removed material and make backfilling very easy.

The last pic is my truck hooked up tp the dump truck and trencher on trailer after he got stuck turning around. Went too far down the hill and could not get back up.

 

[Highbeam]

I should clarify why it is no good to use a trencher at its max rated dig to dig exactly the depth you need. A trencher is pretty much a big chainsaw. Cutting at max dig means a pretty vertical cutting bar and the tip doing digging will make everything shake much more than using the bottom of the bar on an angle.The other, really more important, thing is that junk always falls back into the trench so there will be hand digging unless you dig the trench an extra foot deep and backfill as needed to get the desired depth. Backfilling is good since you can backfill with good material void of rocks and junk that the utility will rest on. Some places require sand bedding so that the rocks don't rub holes in your wire or pipe. Also, the trencher is likely to hop up and over a rock buried just below the trench bottom so the max dig of 24" won't get you a trench depth of 24" unless the ground is free of rocks. Instead you'll get 22" of depth on top of a jagged rock with 24" on each side. See the problem?

A good digging bar is very important since rocks will wedge in the chain and need to be pried out.

It is hard work on a walk behind. If you can rent a 4-wheeled version or a dingo then you are better off. Even better is a ride on, then it's almost like seat time.

 

[dirtworksequip]

If you can find a Vermeer ride on trencher they are far superior to any other brand out there. I have used every other brand out there and the Vermeer is by far the best. It will make your job go a lot easier.

 

[NorthwestBlue]

Highbeam,

In your earlier post you mentioned the shallow freeze depth in your area. I'm pretty close to you and was wondering what the normal burial depth for water and irrigation lines is around here. I'm guessing about 2 feet but you might know otherwise.

Thanks,

NorthwestBlue

 

[bigballer]

I'm just east of Seattle and my well pump contractor told me 18" is fine. If wire is anything like rocks it could work it's way up towards the surface so I think that's the consideration, not really the frost line. I suppose I could also bind the power to the water line with electrical tape to keep it down but not sure that follows any sort of code. Since I am outside any city limits, most everything is "suggested", not specific. I am at 500ft elevation and last winter we had night temps in the 20's and of course the garden hose I use to water the horses froze but by 10am was thawed out. I suppose the deeper the better but I would go at least 18" to be safe.

btw, I can't find any rental yards (united, sunbelt, hertz) that have anything bigger than a 24" trencher. The other option is to have a contractor do the work but that's big bucks compared to a couple hundred for a day rental of the equipment. I may just go with the 24" and plan on 18" minimum, hand dig where required.

cheers,
bigballer

 

[Highbeam]

Highbeam,

In your earlier post you mentioned the shallow freeze depth in your area. I'm pretty close to you and was wondering what the normal burial depth for water and irrigation lines is around here. I'm guessing about 2 feet but you might know otherwise.

Thanks,

NorthwestBlue

I've lived here and Bremerton (also by the puget sound) for the last 30 years and we have had some good freezes. I have dug in the frozen dirt and mud over the years and the deepest freeze I have ever witnessed was 6" and then plain dirt below that. The garden hose will freeze up for sure. For burying a line that will always be pressurized I see no need to go below 18". Bury the lateral sprinkler lines at 6" or so just so that the grass will grow well and the aerator machines won't mess them up. You will have low point drains and winter blow out for sprinkler laterals so it is not a worry. I must admit though that if I had a trencher that could dig deep I would go as deep as possible with the main house feed line mainly for protection from future digging projects.

I ran irrigation lines at my small lot home with 48 little heads and even though I set it up to be blowoutable I never have done it in the last 4 years and the PVC schedule 40 pipes have never burst.

Our climate is very mild. Graham is sure growing fast, I have some coworkers that live out there and want to move farther out to avoid sprawl. Kind of funny sprawling to get away from sprawl.

I would definitely tie the wires to the water line all the way down the well too. The wires will act like a tracer wire to allow you to locate the buried water line in the future. Plus keep everything nice and neat in the trench.

 

[3RRL]

Joe,
You are like a "ditch expert" or something man.

 

[flusher]

I am going to dig a trench for water and power (to wellhead) and it needs to be no less than 4" wide and 24" inches deep and it will be 350' long through open area. There are rocks anywhere from golfball to soccerball size in my land. My choices of tools are a 13hp 24" ditchwith or a 5000lb mini-excavator with a 10" bucket. Both cost about the same per day, the difference is delivery/pickup of the mini...

which one would I be happier with?? which will do a better job? btw, I have not used either of these before.

cheers,
bigballer

In May05 I rented a Ditch Witch 1330 trencher from Home Depot for $125/day. Dug nearly 1100 feet of trench in about 8 hours, including nearly 350 feet of 4"W x 24"D trench for my 200 amp electrical service.

The 1330 is a walk-behind (actually a walk backward in the direction of motion) unit that weighs nearly 1000 lbs. It's hard to get it aligned at the start of a trench line because it's steering is so primitive. You really have to muscle the thing to get it lined up.

Other than that, it worked OK. The only glitch was a broken rope on the pull starter that happened about 6 hours into the job. Took about 30 minutes to fix that problem.

 

[bigballer]

well i needed to get it done and decided to go with the ditchwitch 1330 based on availability. the cost was 140/day and i needed it. 450' of trenching with several breaks to backfeed the chain and also hand dig out rocks, it really was miserable and i swore alot but it's done and the trench is 18" in most places, some deeper. I discoverd a frenchdrain and another perferorated drain line that runs paralell to the house. A bit annoying but not a big deal as I had a length long enough to make the repair.

So I have the water line in, the power run, all the plumbing in place and all the pump/controllers for the new well. As of yesterday at 2pm I had water running from the new well through the new tank and out a garden hose. This was a major accomplishment. Today I tied the water line into the main house line splicing into the old well line (keeping as a backup for now) and all tests were good, ran 2 faucets wide open, the shower, the sprinkler and flushed the toilet without noticing any drop in pressure as each one came on. The best part of all of this is I no longer have to haul water during the dry months.

The real highlight though was finding out well is actually producing more than 25gpm which is 2 1/2 times more than the drillers rated it (they used an air rotarty rig to drill and the only way for them to test it is to blow air down the hole and determine how much water comes out -sorta kooky, but ok). So I asked my pump contractor to do a flow test with his pump and they ran it at 25gpm for several hours and when they backed off to 20gpm the pressure came up. What a blessing!

I took a ton of pictures of the whole process and will post them as a seperate thread once I get a chance. I did attach one of a shot of the trench from the wellhead, the pump house is up there in the shade, you can almost make it out. The other is of the pressure reading as I flipped the switch and started pumping. It was a beautiful thing.

Thanks to all of you for your replies to this thread and for sharing your experiences.

cheers,
bigballer

 

[NorthwestBlue]

Thanks for the info bigballer, and good job on the line. I wish I had half of your flow rate.

Highbeam, thanks for the reply. Now I have a better idea about what to expect with temps in the future, and can plan irrigation accordingly. You aren't kidding about the growth in Graham. Been here almost a year and I'm already starting to get that "closed in" feeling with all the new developments nearby.