Ditch prep for Water Line service ?

[G McCall]

I am preparing to install a water line 175 feet long.

I have the ditch dug and plan to use Schedule 40 etc pipe or etc.
Mot sure of the correct pipe name. I prefer a pipe that comes in 100 foot rolls.

Does the ditch need any special preparation such has sand base ?

Would it be better I place the water line pipe inside another pipe if I were to use shorter pipe lengths with glued joints ?

 

[koop]

Sounds like maybe you are coming from well to a building?


Schedule 40 usually refers to PVC pipe which comes in 20' (max) lengths.

1" Black plastic water line is what you describe and want for your application. There are no joints to fail underground.

I have never done any special prep for water line other than depth below frost line.

Good luck

 

[EddieWalker]

Schedule 40 is the good stuff. I don't have a clue what you mean by "etc" or what it is.

Black Poly come sin different grades. If you buy it at Home Depot or Lowes, you will end up with the thin stuff. That's pure junk and not even good enough for sprinkler systems. If you go to a plumbing supply house, you can get the better stuff. I forget the ratings on it, but one is rated for around 100 psi and the better is 300psi. You might think that's fine since you don't think you will ever have that much preasure, but water preasure is a small part of what a pipe does.

A good pipe resists damage from the soil. In some places, it's code to have one foot of sand all the way around the pipe. I spent a season in California doing this, and it's a real pain in the but.

The next thing to consider is your fitting. Poly relies on hose clamps. It's famous for failing. It takes years, or it happens right away. From what I've been told by those in the water districtst that I've worked with, it always fails. There are crews working 24/7 to deal with those failures in black poly and those fittings. It was used for allot of neigborhoods way back when, and now they are regretting it.

Nobody regrets using Schedule 40 PVC pipe for their water lines. You didn't say what size water line that you are putting in, but if it's 2 inches or larger, then you want gasketed pipe. It might come in smaller sizes, I'm not sure what size you can get it in. If it's smaller pipe like one inch, then your next best bet is 20 foot sticks with a bellhousing. The bellhousing is longer and stronger then a PVC coupling that you glue on.

Always use purple primer. It's softens the pipe and allows the glue to melt the PVC together.

Of the different colored glues, the clear glue is the only one that the water districts that I've worked with will allow. It's the only color that I've been told does not have a problem of failure. All other colors of glue will fail.

Pipe in the ground moves. Depending on your local soil conditions, decides how much movement that you will get. It's probably allot more then you realize. Most people don't have a clue how much their soil moves.

Putting a pipe inside another pipe is likely to increase the movement of the water pipe. It is built to handle normal movement with what is considered the proper amount of resistance. If you change this, you change what the pipe is designed to be capable of doing. It's anybodies guess what the results will be.

Keep it simple, do what is proven and what is code.

Eddie

 

[smitty9266]

There is a new PVC pipe on the market that is standard sized and comes in roll's called flexible PVC. It used standard fittings comes in 50 100 and 250 foot lengths. Try this link Product Listing - 3_Flex_PVC_Pipe_1_inch.

I used this to run 250 foot in the woods worked great no couplings no joints no problems!!!

Jeff

 

[ray66v]

You want a coil of water service pipe. This is the plastic pipe that is standard installation material for this purpose, (300 psi). I would go at least 1". It comes in rolls long enough to go all one piece. And is not real expensive.

Don't forget the compression fittings and the sleeves that go inside the pipe to prevent it from being crushed by the fittings. The sleeves come in plastic and stainless. Get the stainless if you have the choice.

Make sure that there are no voids under the pipe. They will potentially cause tension on the pipe if it gets pushed into them as everything settles.

 

[CurlyDave]

I am preparing to install a water line 175 feet long.

I have the ditch dug and plan to use Schedule 40 etc pipe or etc.
Mot sure of the correct pipe name. I prefer a pipe that comes in 100 foot rolls.

Does the ditch need any special preparation such has sand base ?

Would it be better I place the water line pipe inside another pipe if I were to use shorter pipe lengths with glued joints ?

If you are doing this yourself all the way, let me tell you about the correct pipe size to use. Most people think that if pressure drop through the system is low enough, the pipe sizing is correct. This is mistaken.

Using the pump curve for your well pump, the head of the well, and the desired water tank pressure determine the GPM your pump is likely to produce. You want the flow rate from the well to the pressure tank, not the amount you will use inside the house at any given time. The pipe from your well to the house should be sized so that the flow velocity is between 2 and 5 feet/second.

This is fast enough to prevent sediment from settling in the pipe, and slow enough to prevent pipe erosion. Pipes sized this way are frequently much larger than those sized on pressure drop alone.

On your other issues, PVC is about a "standard" as you will get, no special ditch preparation, other than keeping it below the frost line, is necessary, and a double pipe is not usually necessary, except in special circumstances.

I used conduit to sleeve my pipe on the run from the propane tank to the house, and I used conduit to sleeve a section of PEX run underground.

 

[ampsucker]

definitely stay away from the cheap black plastic pipe. i have dug one of our water runs up in various places so many times i can't count. it is always a sharp rock that has punctured it. usually every year or two i have to dig up and patch a section of that stupid pipe the previous owners put in 30 some years ago. if there wasn't so much landscaping on top of it, i would have replaced it long ago. probably will still have to do it some day, just dreading it....

amp

 

[SLOBuds]

I used conduit to sleeve my pipe on the run from the propane tank to the house, and I used conduit to sleeve a section of PEX run underground.

Haven't considered running PEX underground. I like the conduit sleeve idea. Any elaboration on how that worked out for you or other constraints relative to that approach?

These water line threads are interesting to me. I'm a California boy and it all seems to be PVC out here. Can't imagine it being done any other way! Now I'm checking into these black lines, and the flexible PVC mentioned above.

With PCV you just throw it into the ground. Below frost line if applicable. Yes, you need to properly glue the joints according to instruction. It's not difficult at all, but it has to be done.

I set about 2500 feet of PVC on my parcel about 2 years ago. Had help from someone who taught me to minimize connectors. My original design had several places with 45 degree connectors to shift course. The guy who helped me instead ran the trench in gentle curves which minimized connectors (eg, failure points) down to the minimum. Ran some 4" fire hydrant PVC that didn't care much for those gentle curves!

 

[Charlesaf3]

As an aside to the excellent advice above, I like to check pipes with an air compressor before I put water in and hook them up. Leaking air seems easier to fix for me....

Less of and issue in the ground than it is in a building of course.

 

[SLOBuds]

As an aside to the excellent advice above, I like to check pipes with an air compressor before I put water in and hook them up. Leaking air seems easier to fix for me....

How do you do that? How do you know there is a leak, and how do you find out where it is then?

 

[CurlyDave]

Haven't considered running PEX underground. I like the conduit sleeve idea. Any elaboration on how that worked out for you or other constraints relative to that approach?

I have never worked with PEX before we built our new house. When I built the old one, copper was the preferred material.

Anyway, the Pex came from the main water hook-up to the house, out through the drain rock (compacted road base rock) under the slab, and on out to the PCV from the well. So far no problems, but no problems with the PVC either.

The gas line was some sort of flexible line which only had to be in conduit where it went under concrete. The route went under my driveway, and it was going to take more than a week for the gas line installer to get there, so I put in conduit to be able to close the trench across the driveway.

The propane company owner and a very stout (strong stout, not fat stout) helper in his late 20s pulled 180' of gas line through the conduit with no trouble at all.

 

[SLOBuds]

Anyway, the Pex came from the main water hook-up to the house, out through the drain rock (compacted road base rock) under the slab, and on out to the PCV from the well. So far no problems, but no problems with the PVC either.

Even more interesting. I imagined you running PEX between 2 outbuildings, not direct from the well. Conduit should be just fine, I would imagine. One time I had to run French Drain line under a gravel driveway so I shoved it into a long piece of huge schedule 40. Crack myself up everytime I think about the over-engineering. (And expense!)

Do you find this underground PEX application to be prominent or otherwise gaining popularity in your area? Just don't see it here at all. Not that I'm in construction trade mind you. I see plenty of reference to PEX being installed within the house.

Did you buy or did you rent that PEX crimper, and was it hard to learn how to use? I've read that the crimping has to be done perfectly or else you could have problems.

Thanks.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm not up on PEX enough to know all the rules on it yet, but I'd be very cuatious when comparing water lines to gas lines. Water moves pipes around. Preasure increases and decreases cause constant motion in plumbing lines all the time and are a major source of failure. Pipe can only take some much movement until something breaks. Enclosing a water line inside of another line increses the amount of movement that you will get in that water line, whether is side to size flexing, or end to end travel.

In California, where I spent a season jetting water lines, it was very important to make sure the sand was all the way around the pipe and that the pipe was solid in the sand. Jetting is where you put a pipe into the sand and force water into the sand until you fill up the trench anc colapse the sand around the pipe. Sand will self compact with the water and when you got enough water in there, you could see it happen. Then the contractor would check to see how much sand was above the pipe and add more if needed. When we finished that, the inspector would come out and measure the amount of sand around the pipe and also check to make sure it was compacted and solid. No movement in the pipe is the goal, so when there is some movement, it is at a very minimal amount.

When running water pipe up through a cement slap, I wrap it in pipe insulation. This protects the pipe from rubbing against the cement slab. Over time, this has been a source of leaks in homes. It's happened allot with copper lines too!!!!

Of all the options available in running water lines, Shedule 40 PVC is the only one wiht a proven track record of success. The black poly lines all have failure histories. The only advantage to black poly is that it comes in longer runs and is easier and cheaper to install. All your low end sprinker systems are black poly because of how much cheaper it is to install. They also get to make momey coming out for repairs, so it's a win-win for them. In your home, don't cut any corners on utilites. Put in the best material available, or wait until you can.

As for the other materials, they might work out fine. I'm hearing only good things about PEX, but its' still new technology. There are allot of homes out there that were built with the latest, greatest invention, only to realize later on that it's not what was hoped for. Solar is a great example.

Eddie

 

[Charlesaf3]

I'm starting to put pex in, but am watching it. No issues so far. Crimper is crazy expensive for what it is - never seen one for rent. You can get compression fittings.

SLO - How do you do put a compressor on? Make up a fitting with a quick connect on it. A 75 psi air leak makes a nice whistle, its not too subtle. But I leave it pressurized for a while, with the compressor off. If it loses pressure, there's a leak.

If for some reason its hard to find, do the gas line trick - soapy water brushed on over joints. Bubbles = leak.

 

[SLOBuds]

I'm not up on PEX enough to know all the rules on it yet, but I'd be very cuatious when comparing water lines to gas lines. Water moves pipes around. Preasure increases and decreases cause constant motion in plumbing lines all the time and are a major source of failure. Pipe can only take some much movement until something breaks. Enclosing a water line inside of another line increses the amount of movement that you will get in that water line, whether is side to size flexing, or end to end travel.

Is there a lot of flexing even at 60-80psi? When your in a house that doesn't have the water lines tightly secured, you can hear 'thunks' when valves open and close. Moving pipes. I've never considered those noises to be future failure points.

With my PVC I just dig a hole and toss it in the ground and cover it up. The time I did that 2500' I made a tactical error and failed to mound the dirt over the trench. Well ... that means you have a lot of work to do some time in the future when the dirt finally settles. It is easier to mound and later grade DOWN as opposed to fill level, then later have to fill more.

PEX was adopted in Europe a few decades back. Early failures happened due to issues I don't recall at the moment. From my perspective I think it is now as reliable as copper. Assuming correct installation techniques which MUST be followed. I don't know if it's at the DIY category yet, even though I see companies selling PEX as DIY in places such as Fine Home Building. FHB seems to be a forum of tradespeople and others who want to be or in process of being - anyway SOMEONE out there thinks that a DIY can install PEX.

Taking that a step further, I don't actually consider copper w/soldering as DIY. Maybe after plenty of practice. But definitely skill in a category that is different from driving nails or screwing screws. I've soldered myself and have observed my work being re-done by a professional plumber. Don't want to get into a discussion of how different those 2 work samples looked or performed!

So I'm thinking that you can get a bad copper install and a bad PEX install. It's pretty hard to get a bad PVC install, but still possible if you don't glue the right way. And gluing is such an easy skill that you really have to TRY to not do it right. Almost.

I also do drip all the time. It's been a lifesaver for me during the hot summer months. And it's pretty much in the same category as PVC relative to skills. Maybe you have to learn a little bit more about pressure and flow control. Not too tough. My biggest challenge with drip is with critters who chew on the pipe. Second 'ah-ha' learning was that drip has to be tested all the time. It is definitely not true that drip is plug and play. I walk all of my drip lines every other week during summer months when they are used heavily. And virtually every inspection there are repairs needing to be done. STILL a benefit since my only other option is to water 300 plants by hand.

 

[Charlesaf3]

soldering doesn't strike me as too hard, but I'm nowhere near as fast or as clean looking as my plumber. But hey, if it doesn't leak, and water is going through the pipe...

Pex is easier to my mind, especially if you have the tools. But you still need to solder the stubs etc., pex just helps running the long runs. Not that "just" is appropriate for that - huge timesaver.

I also like the home run aspect of pex.

 

[CurlyDave]

I imagined you running PEX between 2 outbuildings, not direct from the well. Conduit should be just fine, I would imagine. One time I had to run French Drain line under a gravel driveway so I shoved it into a long piece of huge schedule 40. Crack myself up everytime I think about the over-engineering. (And expense!)

In this case, the PEX did not run all the way from the well. The well is about 500 feet from the house. PEX in conduit was only the last 20 feet of that.

I also like the home run aspect of pex.

For cold water, the "home run" might be OK, but how does one plumb a recirc line for hot water in a big house using home runs?

We just ran a big enough PEX line in a big loop around the house and then tied individual fixtures into it with short stubs.

This way you get fast hot water, and can run several fixtures at once without noticing any flow loss.