Buying Advice Diesel smog emission stuff?

/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #121  
In the pickup world it seems like DEF solved a few issues.

If I had a tractor with emissions I'd prefer if it had DEF and kept itself clean. Otherwise I'd look at eliminating the system.
DEF is just an additive component to a DOC, DPF, EGR, Soot trap, Exhaust back pressure flap and sometimes other components. It all depends on the hp and tail pipe readings of the engine. DEF is used to lower nitros oxide primarily. The DPF is still there to collect and hold until the engine sees a large enough pressure differential pre and post. Then it starts a regen procedure.

On most small tractors if you run them 1800 rpm or more you shouldn't need a regen very often, 25-50 hours is average. They usually take 5-20 mins. No need for W.O.T. just raised RPM. If the tractor is started and stopped a lot and short tripped it's going to regen far more. But the DPF is replaceable and cleanable. Easily in most tractors. There have been exceptions (B3350 Kubota)

The main reasons I moved to a 40hp cabbed Kioti are winter, summer humidity, bugs, and no more breathing diesel particulates which are incredibly bad for you. I know. I've run a specialty diesel shop for over 20 years and have serious asthma and other issues from the exposure. And a last thing, def is used in anything 75+ hp.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #122  
All I can tell you for sure is that the DPF/regen system on my RK55 has been the Bain on my existence. 400 hours and it's lost power for the 4th time. RK's service sucks and the problem is, it won't go into regenerate mode due to corrosion on some part of the mother board contacts and they don't show where.

I've just found an x TYM dealer that will work on it and if nothing else, at least I hope to have found a reliable service source that doesn't let you tractor sit for 2 months.

No matter what you decide, don't buy an RK brand tractor no matter how attractive the features/ price are. It's just not worth the hassle.

75 acres of mostly woods, hills, trail maintenance, wood splitting, log hauling brush hogging, gravel spreading, compost turning, round bale moving, cow crap scooping. Most of my work is done in the 2000 rpm range.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #123  
My Dad bought us a B2650 because it was as large as he could go without Emissions equipment. In the years since, he has learned that the Re-Gen cycles are not that bad on the midsized tractors and they don't even drop power while doing it. He regrets not getting a larger tractor at the time.

Decide what you want to DO with your tractor, then get the tractor that will fit that requirement.

"My tractor has too much power"
-Nobody
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #124  
If I'm not mistaken, if you stay under 99 pto horsepower, DEF injection is not required, just a DPF or selective catalyst reduction and the DPF filter is removable, in fact it has to be renewed after so many regens. Problem is, the EPA states that the residue contained inside the DPF is considered a hazardous substance and must be removed and sent to a hazardous waste landfill. I never knew incinerated carbon was hazardous but what do I know. My rub with T4 final engines is the have to renew the DPF cannister. They ain't cheap so some owner (original or successive) gets stuck with the renewal bill.
My Yanmar YT359C has a 5000 hr rating on the DPF
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #125  
Well, I'm glad to have this information though I don't think it applies to me, since I never heard of this emissions stuff (25 hp Mahindra three years old). But I want to say that the HST is wonderful. I can brush-hog while backing up! With my late father-in-law's International Harvester I would have had to wait until the mower stopped turning before shifting gears. It's the one thing I don't miss in that wonderful machine, which I now wish I'd had repaired whatever the cost.

Interesting stuff. Thank you all!
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #126  
They ain't cheap so some owner (original or successive) gets stuck with the renewal bill.
I suspect the only people that would worry about this are those trying to trade in their tractor. My guess is that most would find a way to defeat/modify/remove the filter and when/if selling would do so on the open market.

Until the EPA starts inspecting CUTs most won't worry about it.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #127  
There's one person on here that keeps repeating I would never have
a hydro tractor the lost of hp is too high. Most people on here could
care less as a gear tractor is almost worthless for what they want!
Technology has come a long ways and hydro's are more efficient than
they were years ago also who would want to clutch and shift when you
can just step on a pedal and go forward or backward?????!

When I have to regen I am usually running near the rpm's required to
regen and I don't stop just to regen I keep working.
IMHO if you have to regen quite often I would check your thermostat
and change it to 200 degree's F.

willy
Yanmar's I-HMT transmission in my YT359C acts like a hydo but is way more efficient.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #128  
A couple of things that I have not seen addressed.
1) focus on the size of tractor that meets your needs. The only need I have seen expressed was to fit between trees. This to me is a biggie but not the only one. You mention a cab—will that limit you in your height (tractor size) to fit in locations-under tree limbs? Inside storage location? Any other issues you need to consider—make a list of planned activities, talk to friends/neighbors about task.
2) it amazes me the people that have commented that seem to run their tractors at low RPM’s. Tractors are designed to run at 540 PTO RPM’s—yes you probably want to warm up at lower and cool off at lower RPM’s, but work is intended to be done at high RPM’s—you will have better hydro flow, rated HP is most likely at 540 PTO RPM-this is likely near the regen RPM level as well )my tractor is much older than tier IV) I have no personal experience with regen.
3)In my conversations with people over the years I have never encountered anyone that has said ‘I wish I had less HP’. Some have said they wish they had a smaller tractor (which would often mean less HP). This usually is because of a need to fit somewhere—shed where they want to store the tractor, between trees and such.
All that said once tractor frame size is determined, I suggest get as much HP within that size as possible.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #129  
DPF equipped tractors produce only ~ 1% of the cancer and smog producing diesel particulates which are produces by ~ 25-horsepower diesel tractors without DPFs.

Turbocharging an L2501 so it produces 200 times as much pollution as a 33-39 horsepower, DPF equipped Kubota tractor should be a crime.

If you need > 25-horsepower buy a DPF equipped, legal machine.

I'm dumbfounded by this comment. I think its great that this guy put a turbo on his 2501. Perhaps you should be buying a fresh supply of N95 masks for the upcoming election year Covid hysteria again, and get injected with the latest greatest boosters because that's what the government says. What I see are many old time farmers that lived into their 90's despite decades of planting, tilling, and harvesting on open station tractors with old smoky diesels.

Depends on what you're "upgrading". IDI (Indirect Injection) engines aren't very accommodating for increasing power: there are some exceptions; I really only know of one: Mercedes OM606 [and that family]. Don't know about tractors and turbos (but I _DO_ know a little about such with road vehicles) but there's more than just adding a turbo- was the bottom end designed/spec'd to handle the increased torque, can the exhaust (and intake) really handle the increased flows and are you really able to properly control boost and EGTs?

Just so you know, the Kubota L2501 has mechanical direct injection. It is not an IDI engine.

Rant on:
Speaking broadly, every new convenience represents a skill lost. The older diesels just need fuel, compression and air to run. DEF, DPF, common rail, piezoelectric, even HEUI require the modules that control them. Those various "modules" or "black boxes" on modern machines (and pickups) are computers. Computers in an outdoor environment have a limited lifespan.

Let's talk diesel pickups. What has the modern tech given us? Power is up and visible smoke is down. But woe to you if you run low on DEF. As to power, it would be up anyway, as it is with gassers, because of progress driven by the free market competition for your hard earned dollars. And the Swedes did research finding that tiny modern diesel nanoparticulates penetrate further into our body, even into the blood and thru the blood/brain barrier. The smelly old diesels with visible black smoke didn't do that. You just avoid breathing it, an old art called Common Sense, and those large particulates settle to the ground.

What's the repair cost if your HPOP fails on a 6.7 Powerstroke (or Duramax, Cummins)? Last I heard it was about $8k, because the pump's shrapnel fills up the injectors and common rail. I decided to sell my 2018 6.7 and find another 7.3 diesel. My son read the 2018 with FORscan and found that the new truck had 18 computers. One for the steering wheel, one for the butt vibrating seats. Wretched excess. Every modern convenience is a skill lost.

Rant off.

Well, my 2003 Ford F-550 with the 6.0L diesel has the HEUI system and still has its original FICM, 20 years later. That truck has never been garaged and starts up and runs as smoothly as it did when knew. So that particular "computer" that has lived a hard life in the hot and cold has survived a long time and shows no signs of giving up.

In terms of particulate matter, its worth noting that the older diesels emitted fine particulate as well, in addition to the heavier, visible particulate. It depended upon how warm, fast, and well the engine was running. Its also worth noting scientists have discovered modern gasoline direct-injected engines produce even finer particulates than modern diesels, and are beginning to apply GPFs (gas particulate filters) on modern GDI engines as well.

Ford has had issues with every model of powerstroke except for the original IH 7.4L.

First off, its a 7.3L not a 7.4L. And those engines still had issues, just like every single engine ever made will. The 7.3L was just known to be overall pretty reliable and long lived, like a Cummins 5.9L.

Yes, the IH 6.0L had a ton of problems, almost universally related to the emissions system (EGR cooler, oil cooler, etc). Some had head gasket issues, but usually not on stock tuned motors. The 6.0L can be quite a decent and long-lived engine.

The IH 6.4L was basically a disaster - moving away from HEUI to a high pressure fuel pump. That wasn't so much the problem, but the dual EGR coolers and early version DPF were. That and the fact that engine internals were not as robust either.

The 6.7L has been overall a great engine. The CP4 pump is the weak spot, but then again there are millions of these things on the road and some have extremely high mileage with the original CP4 pump. I've owned 4 of these Ford 6.7's and they have been good.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #130  
When I first started thinking about buying my first tractor, my thoughts were to limit my search to all tractors with less than 25 or 26 (number varies, it seems) horsepower in order to avoid buying a new tractor with government dictated smog emission controls to have to deal with. Some people claim that they can be a real pain. Others are saying they are no big deal. So, what is the TRUTH?

Are some brands better than others in this department? I have been focused on probably buying a Kioti brand tractor, particularly the CK20SE CAB series, in which it appears all the models are pretty much identical except for the amount of horsepower the engine will put out. I guess it is a matter mostly of tuning and air/fuel control of that diesel engine making the difference. So I can choose to buy the 24.5 horsepower version, or perhaps the two other models with higher engine ratings (34.9 and 39.6 hp respectively), but having the onerous smog emission complexities attached.

Is this a big deal, or not? Headache, or not? Is it really something I should allow to influence my decision about what to buy?

Of course, another perspective of looking at this is: Will the difference of just 10.4 and 15.1 horsepower even worth fretting over and just buy the 24.5 horsepower version and be done with it?
I have a 20 ck3510. It’s no big deal with the regen. Just keep rpm’s up and work on.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #131  
Is this a big deal, or not? Headache, or not?

Well, depends.

It's all in how they approach dealing with the emissions. As the owner of a 6.4L Powerstroke which wasn't a bad design. But the way they added emissions controls (among other things) created a truly disastrous motor.

The point is if there is a successful history of running these tractors with the current emission controls then you'll likely be fine. If they're trying some new approach designed to squeeze more power (or whatever) out of the motor it might be best to let others prove the worthiness of the technology.

The saying, "No one ever said I wish I'd bought a smaller tractor" is generally true, but if you can do everything you want to accomplish with the smaller tractor there's no real reason to go bigger. Save your money and buy more attachments.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #132  
I only put about 200 hours on my Kubota M7-171 yearly. Into my 5th year no problem but then the DEF system failed. Dealer worked on it while still under warranty, down a half day, warranty and back working but first fault code happened 1 hour following their DEF header replacement. Turns out the DEF pump was bad but they didn't diagnose that until this year, year 6, and with a 5 year emissions warranty, Kubota stuck me with the $4k replacement cost even though the failure began and was documented (by my pictures of when the fault code appeared last year the day the tech finished replacing the DEF head in the tank. But 6 years, a repair, is it really bad? I don't like that they stuck me with it as I had the fault documented while under warranty but that's life.

My M5-111 is a 2021 model. Last winter I was in some really deep snow, on a hill, and a loader hose failed. Got that repaired in a few days (lots of snow to dig out because the hose was low) and when I started it, I had a DEF code. Contacted dealer and they sent info on where pins need to be checked for voltage - the DEF heater had faulted while sitting in the cold (normally it sat in a heated garage). I had to use my mini-excavator to dig around the tractor to get access to the connector at the bottom of the fuel/DEF tanks. When I took the connector off, powder from corrosion fell into my face. The sealed connector had not been properly connected in Japan so moisture got in and corroded every pin. Turns out the heater drew the most power so it was the first fault. Having years of experience that corroded connectors like this cannot be permanently taken care of by cleaning, I called the dealer and with pictures, said we have a problem. In this case no question. Since the harnesses are not serviced separately, the DEF pump needed to be replaced. Major $$$ all covered by Kubota.

So new tractors over 75 HP almost all have DEF. I am meticulous about the fluid I use and how I care for the DEF system. Despite that, the M7, having over 400 hours the year before, only had 120 hours last year due to downtime (fortunately my nephew has lots of old IH tractors so I could get work done) and this year we are in August and I still haven't reached 100 hours due to DEF problems. Once again 50 - 60 year old IH tractors to the rescue. Of course on those the only window in the cabs is the windshield. No worry about cab doors - long since in the junk. They've had many breakdowns over the years, handled by a guy 250 miles away who keeps old IH tractors going when he doesn't have anything better to do, but so low in capital that he can have a dozen of which maybe half work at any time.

Last Saturday I attended the estate auction for a local farmer. He had 3 older 4030 John Deeres (along with 4 other Deeres of various models). The secret to keeping going with older tractors is plenty of backups. Seven tractors for a one person cattle operation with many backups for the most commonly used model. His newest was a 2015 Deere 6105D, basic configuration of the 6105 and no DEF but with DPF. It brought $20k more than what I had on my list as projected sale price.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #133  
It's a sad commentary on emissions when it forces reliance on 50-60 y/o tractors to continue operating.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #134  
Turbocharging an L2501 so it produces 200 times as much pollution as a 33-39 horsepower, DPF equipped Kubota tractor should be a crime.
I'm curious as to the source of this statement. 200 times more (200x) or 200% more (2x or twice as much)?

The site What is a Turbo: Why Turbocharged Engines are Environmentally Friendly

Makes the argument that "Turbos are — contrary to what one might assume — green technologies."

So where does the counter-argument come from?
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #135  
LOL. Lots of opinions. One thing that is 100% not debatable is.. Complex diesel emissions have not in any way contributed to the longevity of a engine. They may have become less problematic but no one ever has said, man I cant believe how much more reliable these emissions regulations have made my tractor, truck or whatever. If I personally owned a emissions equipped diesel I would either sell it and buy a pre emission and if pre emission diesels were "banned" not own a diesel. Merica!! Land of nutjobs and useless opinions.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #136  
2015 Kioti 7320. Not sure my exact hours but it's over 800. Runs fine and the regen is just an annoyance sometimes, because it will come on when I am done with a task and want to shut down, so I have to keep it running at 2000 rpm. I alway run the tractor at 2,000 rpm or higher unless I am getting out of it to do something on the ground. Usually I turn the throttle down then because of noise. If all you need is 25 hp then Your decision is easy. But if you need more, why would you try to make do with less?
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #137  
Reading MHarryE's post makes me not want to own any emissions tractor even though I just bought an MX5200.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #138  
I guess it is a matter of perspective and mine is colored by my days playing around with high performance engines. 10 to 15 horsepower was considered negligible, and even just enough within a margin of error to be considered insignificant. To put an addon on an engine that only gave you 15 more horsepower (if you could even reliably detect it) would be OK if it were a $100 intake or exhaust tweak. But if that same increase cost you $2,000+, well, that would be a real tough sell to anyone.

Percentages are like statistics, I guess. They can sound good or bad depending on the eyeglasses you look at them through.
10-15 HP on a high horsepower engine probably is insignificant. However, on a 25 HP engine, that's either a 40 or 60% increase. This is a significant and noticeable difference in the tractor's performance. I own a NH TC33D (33 HP). I have friends with TC29D (29 HP) and TC 25D tractors. These are the exact same tractors, except for the engine. I'm about 14% higher HP than the TC29D. THat 4 HP may not sound like much on paper, but it is noticeable in practice - enough so that I can tell the difference when brush hogging with a 5 ft mower. If I'm not in really tough conditions, there are times I would consider a 6 ft brush mower on my TC33D (but I do think the 5 foot is a much better match overall). Realistically speaking, I would not consider a 6' it on the TC29 at all. When running the TC25, it does OK with the 5' cutter most of the time, but that owner does say he wishes he had stepped up a level quite regularly. When I run it in what I would consider moderate conditions for my TC33, I often wonder if it should have a 4' brush hog on it. (Being a hydrostatic transmission, I just slow down a bit instead.) I definitely notice that 8 HP increase from the TC25D to the TC33D. It may not sound like much, but that's a 32% increase.

As someone else already noted: it takes a certain amount of HP to simply move your tractor over the ground, even when it's level ground. What you have above that amount is what is left over to climb hills, run a mower or drag a box blade, etc. To make up an example: lets say it takes 10 HP simply to move that 25 HP tractor at a steady speed over a level field at a given speed. (I'd bet it takes more than that, depending on the field conditions). This leaves you 15 HP to do any work in the field (run the mower, for example). IF you take the same tractor and put a larger 40 HP motor on it, you have doubled the amount of HP available to do something other than simply move the tractor.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #139  
Buy the smaller tractor. With the money you saved go and buy a real workhorse like a USA made 62hp Ford 801 series. Best of both, especially when the electronics go out on the newer one.
 
/ Diesel smog emission stuff? #140  
SNIP

So new tractors over 75 HP almost all have DEF. I am meticulous about the fluid I use and how I care for the DEF system. Despite that, the M7, having over 400 hours the year before, only had 120 hours last year due to downtime (fortunately my nephew has lots of old IH tractors so I could get work done) and this year we are in August and I still haven't reached 100 hours due to DEF problems. Once again 50 - 60 year old IH tractors to the rescue. Of course on those the only window in the cabs is the windshield. No worry about cab doors - long since in the junk. They've had many breakdowns over the years, handled by a guy 250 miles away who keeps old IH tractors going when he doesn't have anything better to do, but so low in capital that he can have a dozen of which maybe half work at any time.
SNIP


Harry, you posted quite a bit about DEF fluid here. 5030 has too. Maybe you all can help me out with some DEF questions.

What DEF fluid do you prefer? What is the difference between Blue (brand) DEF and the Blue brand Platinum Premium DEF?

I just tested the DEF in the RV with a refactometer. Although it has been sitting in the RV for about 3 years, the refractometer tested 32.5 - which I understand is what brand new DEF tests at.

Any info appreciated.
rScotty

rScotty
 

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