Buying Advice Diesel generator for home back up use

[doxford jim]

"Yup - that is all it is. The wall penetration works well with an air gap of about 3/4 all around the flexible exhaust - which is held in place radially by three screws/bolts around 5/16" dia. The exhaust sticks out the other side, bent down slightly, about six inches. The ducting for the radiator fan has an outside door that is closed when not in use and latched open for running.

 

[Scooby074]

actually, they dont. there the largest supplier of residental units, so a larger number of failures does not mean there the worst brand. Generac supplies units rebranded as Guardian, Siemens,etc. As a ratio to number of units installed, they are very reliable.

I have installed many different brands of gen sets over the years, and ive had Kohler units fail also. I have a small Honda unit that im thinking of using as a boat anchor. personally i think its the fact that people forget there installed and dont maintain them. never change the oil, etc

There are lots of them out there because they are cheap, no other reason.

They are built cheap to be sold cheap. Ive seen their failures first hand. Saying that there are lots of failures because there are lots of units out there is a bit of a red herring.

IIRC I paid around $4500 for my 7000w inverter Honda, Yamaha inverters are about the same. Yet Generac sells a generator that is almost 3x the output, with an auto transfer sw and an enclosure, for the same money:laughing: It just doesnt add up unless there are significant savings found in the units construction. This plays itself out with Gererac failures in the field.

I agree on the maintenance thing, however with my neighbors unit, he had a maintenance contract and the generator was regularly serviced. It also auto-exercised once a week. Propane fueled.

 

[newbury]

The BX25 will do an entirely respectable job on a 15KW generator loaded up to 12KW.
Sometimes the small 12.5KW or 15KW pto units come up for sale at very modest price . Something for use right now or to keep in the shed for backup.
Portable too if power was required at the MIL's to protect her property or contents.

The BX25 is rated at 17.7 PTO HP. I've always read plan on 2hp/kw.

.
2. My power requirements are: Fridge, freezer, stove, lights, and oil fired furnace which includes tank less coil so all hot water comes from this, water well pump, computer, TV.

Hopefully your son-in-law properly rated the well pump. There's been a lot written on here about problems starting up pumps.

Do some searching on "used" army surplus gensets. Some bargains are out there. My BIL bought about 6 in 1998 and sold most of them for the Y2K scare.

Also if you get diesel plan on running it UNDER LOAD. Otherwise they "wetstack".

Good luck and thanks for posting back.

 

[aczlan]

Also if you get diesel plan on running it UNDER LOAD. Otherwise they "wetstack".
Good luck and thanks for posting back.

The smaller military gensets (5kw MEP-002 and 10kw MEP-003) are air cooled, so they are less prone to wetstacking, but it is still something to watch out for.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

There are lots of them out there because they are cheap, no other reason.
They are built cheap to be sold cheap. Ive seen their failures first hand. Saying that there are lots of failures because there are lots of units out there is a bit of a red herring.
IIRC I paid around $4500 for my 7000w inverter Honda, Yamaha inverters are about the same. Yet Generac sells a generator that is almost 3x the output, with an auto transfer sw and an enclosure, for the same money:laughing: It just doesnt add up unless there are significant savings found in the units construction. This plays itself out with Gererac failures in the field.

I wont disagree that they are built cheaper than a Honda, but in comparing your 7kw inverter to a larger genset you are comparing apples to oranges. Your generator has the magic I word in its name, thus a higher price. A better comparison would be a Honda EM6500S (MSRP $2889.95) vs a EU6500iS (MSRP $4499.95) vs a similar higher end Generac.
Also, price vs output is not linear. For example, a Honda EM4000 is $2249.95, ~$640 less than its big brother the EM6500 which puts out 1.6 times the power.

Aaron Z

 

[buickanddeere]

The BX25 is rated at 17.7 PTO HP. I've always read plan on 2hp/kw.

The heavier loaded the diesel, the less wet stacking is an issue.
The 2HP per KW is for round figuring convenience and sizing engines on continuous duty gen sets instead of intermittent duty such as your application. Some margin for motor starting to on a marginal quality system.
Still stands that your BX25 will run a 15KW generator at 12KW for days without a problem. The 15KW generator will have better voltage regulation and run cooler than a 12.5KW generator maxed out.
1.5HP per KW is fine.
746W per HP at 100% efficiency.

 

[Scooby074]

I wont disagree that they are built cheaper than a Honda, but in comparing your 7kw inverter to a larger genset you are comparing apples to oranges. Your generator has the magic I word in its name, thus a higher price. A better comparison would be a Honda EM6500S (MSRP $2889.95) vs a EU6500iS (MSRP $4499.95) vs a similar higher end Generac.
Also, price vs output is not linear. For example, a Honda EM4000 is $2249.95, ~$640 less than its big brother the EM6500 which puts out 1.6 times the power.

Aaron Z

Absolutely, having an inverter ads considerably to the cost, no argument.

But going back to conventional, the EM6500 is around $2900, rated at 23A @240V or 5520W. That calculates out to about $0.52/W

The Generac 20kW is $4500 and is rated at 83A@240V or 19,920W. $0.23/W

I accept that its not a linear relationship, but the Generac is so much cheaper that quality suffers. Look at what extra you get in the Generac package, ATS, enclosure etc..

 

[Gator6x4]

Sigh, why is it when someone here posts something like "I've done the math, and I need 10KW", some expert has to tell them "oh no, I get by with 7KW, so you should be able to as well"?

The OP said he's estimated that he needs 10KW....let it go.

I had two electricians do a survey of my house, and they both said an absolute minimum of 17KW to run most things, including the AC, but that would still require being careful. I ran the numbers myself (I'm pretty familiar with Ohm's law), and cross-checked that on Generac's site, and other sites that have calculators for figuring how much you need. The low end was 17KW, and the high end was 22KW, as I recall. The difference between a 17KW and 20KW unit was around $300, so it would have been stupid to go with the smaller unit. I would have gone with 22KW, but they don't make an air-cooled model that large, and the liquid cooled units get big, and expensive.

Survive an outage in high temps? Probably, but as usual, the folks making comments like this don't know the facts that they're commenting on. My wife primarily works from home (this week she's in DC), in a loft office that would have been simply unbearable if the AC wasn't available the last time we had an outage (24hrs). She's a senior VP at an international company, and is paid accordingly, so she can't just say "oops, our power is out". She absolutely has to be able to work normally regardless of power outages....cell phone backup, mobile 4G hotspot, etc, etc are all in place so she can stay connected. Her company made a major concession keeping her as a remote employee, so we have to do our part. In addition, I sometimes have to travel for work, and am literally on-call 24/7/365. If things go really bad, I may not be home for several days, or longer. The closest gas station is 20min away, and I wouldn't have my 105lb wife trying to drag a generator out, and deal with trying to keep the tank full, and gas cans topped off, on top of working all day....it's simply not worth it.

We've had outages as long as four days here in the last few years, and several hours, to a day, is pretty common....we're in the sticks, and the last to get things fixed. I'm much happier having a unit that isn't taxed 100% to just barely keep things going. In fact, during the last outage, it was very hot (as I mentioned), and there were times when the AC would kick on, and it was obvious that the fan was spooling up slower than usual....short version, we were using all the generator had to give, and we were being careful about what we were using.

There's no point in spending a bunch of money on a generator if it still won't do everything you want it to do, and a little extra capacity won't hurt anything. It's like buying a 40gal hot water heater when you really need a 50gal unit, and wind up taking cold showers....dumb, and false economy.

Good response. I also had a survey and was told 20KW and I use fuel oil for primary heat with propane logs in the fireplace for short term backup.

 

[grsthegreat]

There are lots of them out there because they are cheap, no other reason.

They are built cheap to be sold cheap. Ive seen their failures first hand. Saying that there are lots of failures because there are lots of units out there is a bit of a red herring.

IIRC I paid around $4500 for my 7000w inverter Honda, Yamaha inverters are about the same. Yet Generac sells a generator that is almost 3x the output, with an auto transfer sw and an enclosure, for the same money:laughing: It just doesnt add up unless there are significant savings found in the units construction. This plays itself out with Gererac failures in the field.

I agree on the maintenance thing, however with my neighbors unit, he had a maintenance contract and the generator was regularly serviced. It also auto-exercised once a week. Propane fueled.

well, all i can say is ive been installing generator sets for nearly 30 years. I would say 90% of them have been generac or guardian brands. I DONT sell either..i only install.

Of all the units ive personally installed, ive NEVER had a call back for a failed unit. Thats not aying they called someone else, but ive been called to replace batteries, add heaters,etc on them. No failures ever.

Thats with 100's of installs over the years.

take that for what its worth

 

[s219]

Generac makes perfectly fine water-cooled 1800 rpm generators that are price-comparable to diesel generators (approx $8700 for 22kW). I am told they are quite good. It's the air-cooled 3600 rpm units that are problematic (approx $3700 for 20 kW). You get what you pay for but it's more about air-cooled @ 3600 rpm versus water cooled @ 1800 rpm. I'd say the same when comparing any brand among those main categories.

 

[buickanddeere]

The latest direct drive Generacs are much improved over the belt driven vertical shaft units they used to sell. Generac's other fault used to be over rating the generators which would burn out in hot weather. Operating inside an enclosure makes it even more of a issue.
Of course how many home owners bought a 10KW unit and tried to run a 15KW household?

 

[GManBart]

well, all i can say is ive been installing generator sets for nearly 30 years. I would say 90% of them have been generac or guardian brands. I DONT sell either..i only install.

Of all the units ive personally installed, ive NEVER had a call back for a failed unit. Thats not aying they called someone else, but ive been called to replace batteries, add heaters,etc on them. No failures ever.

Thats with 100's of installs over the years.

take that for what its worth

Another bunch of lucky owners, it would seem!

 

[crazyal]

Okay, here is a little input based on the feedback so far.
I live in a rural area. Tight valleys, lots of trees down when the snow and or freezing rain drops crap on all the lines. Plus the outages have become more frequent and longer lasting. If it were just me, ****, candles, a fire pit and some canned food would be all I need. But let痴 be realistic. If you have a significant other, I don't care how much she is your best friend, soul mate, etc. ; take away their comforts for so long and they turn into ........!!!!...... so as far as rouging it with a minimal generator capacity that allows me to run the freezer and fridge and then rotate to cook on the electric stove and a few lights, that's not happening. Then throw an elderly mother who lives a couple of miles away who comes and stays with us when the power goes out, that compounds it more.
1. Based on what I gather from several KW calculator sites, my BX 25 is not really suited for a PTO generator of 10K size. On top of that, normally during winter, I need the Kubota for other things like snow removal and dicking around with a PTO generator, and then disconnecting to plow/blow and back to the other is not my idea of fun.
2. My power requirements are: Fridge, freezer, stove, lights, and oil fired furnace which includes tank less coil so all hot water comes from this, water well pump, computer, TV. Obviously, all of these things won稚 be operating at the same time and some can be disconnected to run others. I do not burn wood.
My son in law, who is a licensed commercial electrician went over all of my electrical demands etc. and came up with the 10KW requirement. Not pie in the sky hypothetical estimate.
3. This would not necessarily be 24 hour operation. It would have to depend on the situation but I don稚 foresee 24 hr. ops except maybe in the winter if my elderly parent is there (for heat)
4. Another option other than the 10KW Kubota Generator or similar is to get one from here: PRO-SERIES Diesel 7000-Watt Generator with Digital Control Panel and Remote Start-GENSD7D at The Home Depot . While this is a Chinese manufactured generator, At least with HO, there is somewhere to go through for parts and they have a warranty.
6500 Watts continuous. At this price I could buy two if needed!! LOL. With veterans discount, take off another 10% and it seems like a decent price considering what good quality gas jobs go for.
5. Availability of fuel. Diesel definitely gets the nod. With two 275 Gal. tanks on site and a third waiting to be installed, I have more than enough fuel capacity for a long term situation. The realities are that with at least one kid still at home (in school), plus the elderly mother issue, I need more than bare basic. But I also understand the laws of diminishing returns with regards to cost/ benefit of the 7KW vs. the 4X more expensive 10KW.
6 Anyone have any experience with the generator listed above that HD sells

I have no experience with that HD generator but this is how I see it. A 90 day warranty on a no-name engine would worry me. Yes it's cheap but if it does break it'll break when you need it the most. There were lots of people who found out the hard way when Sandy hit that a generator that doesn't start is no better than not having one. Unless you are handy trying to find someone who can work on a generator during a time of crisis is next to impossible. I'm sure HD will be nice as they try to help you get parts and maybe in a couple of weeks they'll take care of you but that's not going to do you any good. If you look around some I think you could save a few bucks and find a generator with a refurbished name brand engine. Just make sure you ask for details on the generator. I personally would expect to spend around $5k for a diesel generator to get the correct size.

 

[rmorey]

Huntgrouse,

Something to consider with the HD genset. A lot of electronic equipment "frowns on" dirty power. Power that fluctuates in either voltage or frequency. I live off grid, so all my "generated power" is fed to my inverters. They monitor the power for quality before hooking it to the house.

When we first started, I had an old Coleman 5000w generator. It would not sync to my inverter. I found that the frequency fluctuated from 52 - 75 hertz. I bought a new Generac 8500w and it works perfectly. (OMG its a portable, gas powered, air cooled Generac!) I've had it 4 years and, other than the battery crapped out, its been great.

The point being, cheap may just be cheap! Be careful.

 

[newbury]

So you want a cheap diesel genset?
CL Alexandria, VA
$700

Selling an Air-cooled Launtop Diesel Generator 6000S for $700. Model 6000S, manufactured in 2010. Silent. Comes with 2 keys.
voltage 120/240V, frequency 60Hz
Specs:
Ultralow Sulfur fuel only
DC 12V 8.3A
AC120V/240V
AC120V
60 Hz
Cont. AC output 5.0 KW
Max. AC output 5.5 KW
power Factor 1.0
Location: Alexandria, VA Kingstowne

 

[buickanddeere]

What a sad low the much copied descendents of the mighty 10HP Yanmar eG55 have become.
I wonder what a real Yanmar eG55 retails for now?

 

[Scooby074]

What a sad low the much copied descendents of the mighty 10HP Yanmar eG55 have become.
I wonder what a real Yanmar eG55 retails for now?

Around $5000 in aus Yanmar Diesel Generators ~ Best Prices & Advice

 

[jenkinsph]

What a sad low the much copied descendents of the mighty 10HP Yanmar eG55 have become.
I wonder what a real Yanmar eG55 retails for now?

I agree, buy a cheap copy of some other companies stolen design and engineering work is well WRONG. Nothing I wan't to be a part of.

 

[hr3]

Nope. His was (over) sized to code and installed by an electrician. I believe its a "20":laughing: kW as well.

He's not the only one. Generacs have a very high failure rate.

When figuring failure rates it's important to take into account that Generac sells more units than anyone else..

 

[lamarbur]

Been a very long time since posting to TBN however, not getting into the why's and why not's, we have lots of major power outages where I live,, End of the line, not many homes and the electric company just can't see updating lines for a few homes, Anyway, after 18 years with a gas powered 14Kw and it burning up,, a couple of months with a new Honda 6500 inverter, we finally have installed a brand new Winco genset,, Diesel powered 20,000 at 83 amp continuous output,, Has the triple lined steel tank under it with 130 gallons of diesel,, It is suppose to run 24/7 for 9 1/2 days however I have an over ride switch and shut it down. We are so use to warming the house, cook, take a shower and shut the old gas job off that we now have the same set up again.,.. Total costs with 130 gallons of fuel was a few dollars over $15,000. This is with automatic switching, underground piping, the whole works. Winco, with exception of the Isuzu 4 cyl engine is supposedly 100% American made outside of Minneapolis MN.