Buying Advice Diesel generator for home back up use

/ Diesel generator for home back up use #21  
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #22  
If you arent going to try and run a computer (some do, I probably wouldnt) a big ole' Listeroid diesel powered genny would be the ticket. 6000-7500w . Run forever on questionable fuel. Big hunk of iron that you can fix with a hammer;) etc.etc. Plus theyre pretty cool in their own right. If the world ends, cockroaches and listers might be all thats left:D Plus just listen to it! How can you not love a ticking diesel!
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #23  
10kw? 20kw?
I just don't get it.....
Have been through 3 6 day power outages in the past 10 years.

Honda 2000 and love it. Sips fuel which can be very difficult to come by. No problems. Quite comfortable.

If I had a well a slightly different story, probably something just big enough to handle the well.

I suggest you rethink exactly you really need.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #24  
How much of the 20KW are you actually using? Peak? Average? Unless you know, then it doesn't matter how big the generator is.

The OP lives in a rural setting in NY. Chances are, he will survive without AC. :) I'm sure AC is nice to have in your location, but unless you have a compelling medical condition, you would also survive.

My 6500W generator will run my house. Well pump, water heater, lights, microwave, refrigerator and small chest freezer. I cook with propane, heat with wood and sunshine, and it would be a long outage before I would really miss using the washer and dryer. With some manual power management, the dryer could be used. It wouldn't surprise me if the generator breaker tripped if the well, water heater and refrigerator all ran together. That would not be hard to manage either.

No point in overspending for generator capacity that will never be used.

Sigh, why is it when someone here posts something like "I've done the math, and I need 10KW", some expert has to tell them "oh no, I get by with 7KW, so you should be able to as well"?

The OP said he's estimated that he needs 10KW....let it go.

I had two electricians do a survey of my house, and they both said an absolute minimum of 17KW to run most things, including the AC, but that would still require being careful. I ran the numbers myself (I'm pretty familiar with Ohm's law), and cross-checked that on Generac's site, and other sites that have calculators for figuring how much you need. The low end was 17KW, and the high end was 22KW, as I recall. The difference between a 17KW and 20KW unit was around $300, so it would have been stupid to go with the smaller unit. I would have gone with 22KW, but they don't make an air-cooled model that large, and the liquid cooled units get big, and expensive.

Survive an outage in high temps? Probably, but as usual, the folks making comments like this don't know the facts that they're commenting on. My wife primarily works from home (this week she's in DC), in a loft office that would have been simply unbearable if the AC wasn't available the last time we had an outage (24hrs). She's a senior VP at an international company, and is paid accordingly, so she can't just say "oops, our power is out". She absolutely has to be able to work normally regardless of power outages....cell phone backup, mobile 4G hotspot, etc, etc are all in place so she can stay connected. Her company made a major concession keeping her as a remote employee, so we have to do our part. In addition, I sometimes have to travel for work, and am literally on-call 24/7/365. If things go really bad, I may not be home for several days, or longer. The closest gas station is 20min away, and I wouldn't have my 105lb wife trying to drag a generator out, and deal with trying to keep the tank full, and gas cans topped off, on top of working all day....it's simply not worth it.

We've had outages as long as four days here in the last few years, and several hours, to a day, is pretty common....we're in the sticks, and the last to get things fixed. I'm much happier having a unit that isn't taxed 100% to just barely keep things going. In fact, during the last outage, it was very hot (as I mentioned), and there were times when the AC would kick on, and it was obvious that the fan was spooling up slower than usual....short version, we were using all the generator had to give, and we were being careful about what we were using.

There's no point in spending a bunch of money on a generator if it still won't do everything you want it to do, and a little extra capacity won't hurt anything. It's like buying a 40gal hot water heater when you really need a 50gal unit, and wind up taking cold showers....dumb, and false economy.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #25  
For each person the minimum load will be different. I'm making due with a 5kw generator but it's the bare minimum to run my well pump. To do it I have to shut off everything else. 10k will not drive everything in a house but it would be fine for me. AC is not an issue and I can make do without the electric oven. Heating is done with a wood stove. But the freezer and fridge need to be ran for a little while every couple of hours as well as the furnace to keep the hot water at temp. That works out to 7kw to 8kw. A 10kw would give me a little extra room.

A pto generator is OK but I can easily teach my GF how to start a stand by generator. Trying to teach her how to start the tractor, engage the pto, and set the RPM to get the correct voltage is asking too much. The same holds true for refueling. A stand by with a large tank that I also use to fill the tractor wouldn't need refueling.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #26  
Some people want to just flick a switch and live like there is no outage.
And a LOT of people would object to even flipping the switch. They want POWER 24/7 seamlessly.

After Hurricane Isabel (2003) my former boss had a $10,000 generator package installed that kicked in whenever the power went off. The only "urgent" condition that required 24/7 power was that his stereo didn't get interrupted. I bought my $600 Honda powered generator.

Since then - almost 10 years - other than a few "short outages" where power wasn't off for more than an hour or so and thus wasn't an emergency - we've had 1 power outage that I ran my genset intermittently for about an hour.

He's happy, I'm happy.

If the OP thinks he needs 10KW and diesel let's give him advice for that.

If you read the other threads gasoline is often difficult to get in an extended power outage ( think Hurricane Sandy).

Diesel makes great sense if you have the infrastructure.

OP
Do you need it "quiet" or can you work with an open genset and build an enclosure?
Can you wrench and take care of a used unit or do you need new?

I also would strongly suggest a used military genset.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #27  
GManBart

Go back and read posts #1 and #2. OP "rough calculations." Me "how sure are you?"
Post #16 Me, "I'm not trying to tell the OP what size gen. he needs. His estimate was 10KW as I understood it. Could be right, or not."

So far, everyone BUT the OP has offered up their personal experiences. You, not knowing anymore than anyone else about the OP's real needs, are defending a large capacity generator--because you have one I guess, but don't know how much it actually produces apparently.

Anecdotal info about "spooling up slowly" is not how generator output is measured. Although I've never seen medical research that correlates one's pay grade to their core body temperature, and I want your wife to be comfortable by all means, that is not what is being talked about regarding actual generator output either.

An electrician is not going to put themselves in a position of a customer calling them and complaining about not enough power, just like furnace & heating guys, they will always err on the side of abundance rather than get calls that a house is cold. If they are installing a particular brand/model, from past experience they will recommend a unit rating that has worked in the past for the estimated load. Unit rating is not actual performance.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #28  
GManBart


An electrician is not going to put themselves in a position of a customer calling them and complaining about not enough power, just like furnace & heating guys, they will always err on the side of abundance rather than get calls that a house is cold. If they are installing a particular brand/model, from past experience they will recommend a unit rating that has worked in the past for the estimated load. Unit rating is not actual performance.

This is it in a nutshell nobody wants a callback. Code requires you to size a genset a certain way, and those calculations lead to a HUGELY oversized generator compared to if you do your load balancing manually and start motors one at a time etc.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #29  
This is it in a nutshell nobody wants a callback. Code requires you to size a genset a certain way, and those calculations lead to a HUGELY oversized generator compared to if you do your load balancing manually and start motors one at a time etc.

Ease of use, for a given person's situation, is certainly important, but logically I think nailing down the actual power need should come first, then look for a unit/installation/set-up that provides that in a way that works for the situation. It's really two different selection parameters.

It could well be that to get the desired ease of use, a person ends up with a larger capacity unit than needed electrically because that is what the market offers. The difference needs to be understood though.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #30  
GManBart

Go back and read posts #1 and #2. OP "rough calculations." Me "how sure are you?"
Post #16 Me, "I'm not trying to tell the OP what size gen. he needs. His estimate was 10KW as I understood it. Could be right, or not."

So far, everyone BUT the OP has offered up their personal experiences. You, not knowing anymore than anyone else about the OP's real needs, are defending a large capacity generator--because you have one I guess, but don't know how much it actually produces apparently.

Anecdotal info about "spooling up slowly" is not how generator output is measured. Although I've never seen medical research that correlates one's pay grade to their core body temperature, and I want your wife to be comfortable by all means, that is not what is being talked about regarding actual generator output either.

An electrician is not going to put themselves in a position of a customer calling them and complaining about not enough power, just like furnace & heating guys, they will always err on the side of abundance rather than get calls that a house is cold. If they are installing a particular brand/model, from past experience they will recommend a unit rating that has worked in the past for the estimated load. Unit rating is not actual performance.

My point wasn't defending larger generators, it was simply saying that 10KW isn't necessarily "big". My neighbor's house is a fair amount smaller than mine, and he's running either a 14KW or 17KW unit (can't recall)....many other people in the area are as well. There's a reason dedicated standby generators start around 8KW, and go way bigger than that...8KW just isn't that big.

I ran the numbers on our house prior to the install, and came up with the same ballpark two electricians did, and a couple of online calculators...I didn't keep any of that data, so I can't quote a figure, but 20KW wasn't even close to being an over abundance, it was slightly more than a max running load (generator is spec'd at 75amps continuous).

I never said we couldn't survive without AC, just that my wife wouldn't be able to work effectively, which is a non-starter. Right before we moved in, the power was out for four days while we were doing a remodel, and if we had been living here, we would have found a hotel to stay in...it was brutal.

If the OP thinks he needs 10KW, it's really not going to save him a bunch of money dropping down to 7/8KW, but it might cause him to lose things he'd like to keep running during an outage.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #31  
I live in an area that has many power outages that vary in duration. I have no need for instant on power but do have the ability to generate what I need with a 15kw PTO and a 7.5 15kw stand alone air cooled gen set. The small air cooled unit is a Chinese clone of a Yanmar and is really fuel efficient. I have found diesel to be widely available even during state wide outages when gasoline dried up in a day or 2.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #32  
This is it in a nutshell nobody wants a callback. Code requires you to size a genset a certain way, and those calculations lead to a HUGELY oversized generator compared to if you do your load balancing manually and start motors one at a time etc.

That's wonderful if you get to stay home during an outage to manage the power. I don't have that luxury (there are times we both have to travel) and I'd hate to come home to a flooded basement because my generator wasn't up to the task. :eek:
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #33  
I would get by with a 6k genset if possible and a good choice would be this 6500w Honda. Honda EU6500iS Generator 6500 watt Inverter, Super Quiet | Wise Sales

If you are sure you want diesel then look into a Cummins Onan quiet diesel also available at wisesales above.

I have both Hondas (gas) and Onan commercial quiet diesels both are very good and much less noise than most you see today.

If you wan't to save some coins I agree with others about a pto genset for your Kubota. I usually recommend a standalone genset if people have kids as it would be safer than them fooling around with a running tractor for days.


In my first post #9, I included the Cummins Onan Quiet diesel generators and a link showing sizes from 3kw to 20kw this would be an excellent choice for the OP. Onan has all the stuff to take it to the next level, just depends how much you want to spend. I think most of these are using a Kubota diesel engine too.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #34  
My point wasn't defending larger generators, it was simply saying that 10KW isn't necessarily "big". My neighbor's house is a fair amount smaller than mine, and he's running either a 14KW or 17KW unit (can't recall)....many other people in the area are as well. There's a reason dedicated standby generators start around 8KW, and go way bigger than that...8KW just isn't that big.

I ran the numbers on our house prior to the install, and came up with the same ballpark two electricians did, and a couple of online calculators...I didn't keep any of that data, so I can't quote a figure, but 20KW wasn't even close to being an over abundance, it was slightly more than a max running load (generator is spec'd at 75amps continuous).

I never said we couldn't survive without AC, just that my wife wouldn't be able to work effectively, which is a non-starter. Right before we moved in, the power was out for four days while we were doing a remodel, and if we had been living here, we would have found a hotel to stay in...it was brutal.

If the OP thinks he needs 10KW, it's really not going to save him a bunch of money dropping down to 7/8KW, but it might cause him to lose things he'd like to keep running during an outage.

Fair enough.

I was tweaking your nose a bit about the wife. Sorry for that, as I well know all wives have their "non-starters." :laughing:

I know it can be sort of brutal in your area, I grew up there. Had cousins in Milan, MI. If you want real brutal, visit Hannibal, MO in August when it's 108*. Most miserable weather I've ever experienced, and I've spent summer months in Phoenix, AZ.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #35  
I just got a 21kW open-frame diesel unit from Central Maine Diesel, and am in the process of installing it. It has an Isuzu engine and Mecc Alte alternator, and was assembled by GPP in New Jersey and shipped direct from them. The purchase/delivery process was easy, but I expect install to take another couple weeks at the pace I'm going. Also have to built a shed for the generator, run wire, etc. I did get the trench dug and conduit buried, which was a big step. Also have the shed foundation done. Once a few more electrical components arrive, I plan to finish things up.

As far as size, output, and fuel use, consider this. Prices go up $300-900 for about every 4-5kW increase in the 10-20kW range, so there isn't often a huge price penalty to going larger, if the need justifies it. The way I looked at it, if I was going to spend $6800 for 14kW, the jump to 21kW for $7700 wasn't big compared to the 50% increase in capacity. For our home, the minimum was 10kW. We'd need 14kW to start living comfortably, and 19kW for all possibilities.

Another thing I did was graph the fuel usage of the diesel generators in the 8-21kW range, and they all follow a linear trend that overlaps. Some of the larger units are comparable or better in fuel usage running at 25% then the smaller units are running at 75-100%. So there is often little to no penalty fuel wise. Where the big units will use more fuel than small units is if they are just idling at little to no load. Depending on your usage patterns, that may be a factor. But overall, I am expecting anywhere from 3-7 days of conservative runtime from a 55gal drum of diesel with my 21kW Isuzu unit, depending on the season and our needs. It pulls 0.45 gph at 25%, 0.74 gph at 50%, 1.05 gph at 75%, and 1.44 gph at 100%.

I would recommend spending to get the enclosure, breaker kit, sub-base fuel tank, and any other extras that are needed to make your install go more efficiently if your budget allows and/or if you're not handy with all sorts of electrical/mechanical work. In retrospect, I am probably saving 50% in material costs by doing all that myself, but it requires a lot of time/labor on top of that, and some specialized tools. As an example, GPP wanted $600 for their breaker kit (mounted near the generator to protect any downstream service wiring to the home). So far it has cost me about $300 in materials and a special crimping tool, to make the same sort of thing.

None of the work is hard, but it takes time and materials and tools, and good/expert advice and research. I've been fortunate to draw on the experience of a few folks here on TBN, which has helped immensely. I also have spent hours researching and understanding codes for both electrical and install requirements to make sure everything is done properly and safely. A local dealer quoted me $8000-10000 labor to install a generator, and in retrospect that is probably fair for materials and costs.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #36  
And another question for the OP is does he need portability?

Portable gas generators are easy to use elsewhere. Portable diesel generators are heavier. PTO generators require a PTO.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #37  
We live in northern NY state.I went with a 10k PTO driven unit.It full fills all my needs.It will run the house,garage ect.with no problem.Lots of arguments on stand alone or pto driven....I know my tractor will start and that I have fuel for it.
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #38  
That's wonderful if you get to stay home during an outage to manage the power. I don't have that luxury (there are times we both have to travel) and I'd hate to come home to a flooded basement because my generator wasn't up to the task. :eek:

Thats why you have various priority circuits.

And it sounds like you must have an auto transfer switch.. something else that adds considerably to the cost. No doubt it makes life easier, but that convenience, like having a genny sized for a whole house adds considerable expense when the number of uses are factored in.

Guys are throwing out suggestions for 20kw gensets. The OP himself said he calculated a load of 10KW. What most reasonable people here are saying is that he likely could get buy with LESS than even his 10kw calculation if he takes the work on to balance his usage. That lowers his costs considerably, and it sounds like he's on a budget.

I mean while were at it, why not go whole hog... Clearly this is the minimum he should be looking at in order to be comfortable for those few hours a year without power:rolleyes:
power_station_new_cats_img_2301.jpg
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #39  
This topic has been pretty well covered but a couple more thoughts.
What size is the Kubota to know what size pto gen set it can handle.
For those who calculate a 5200W house load and purchase a 5500W generator. Not a good idea as small generators are somewhat " over rated to the brink of smoking" if operated at nameplate capacity continuous . I wouldn't run more than 5000W continuous on a 6500w gen set.
It takes 3 gallons of diesel fuel through the engine to equal the heat of one gallon of diesel burned for heat. We have a kerosene wick heater for the church which has electric heat. We store jugs of Jet A-1 which is pure kerosene to either run the heater. Or to pour into the diesel's fuel tank. No worry of the kerosene jelling in cold weather either.
Clean power is important too. Electronic controls can be ruined by undersized generators or cheapo which don't keep voltage, frequency or spikes suppressed .
Both Kohler and Cummins are supposed to build a good auto gen set. Generac are better than they used to be but the jury is still out .
 
/ Diesel generator for home back up use #40  
One note on a PTO genset, there is no noticeable performance penalty (within reason) to going bigger. So, spinning a 20kw PTO unit with a tractor that can only put out 10kw isn't a big deal as long as you dont try to pull more than 10kw.

Aaron Z
 

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