Def, dpf, etc.

[jeffgreef]

Is Mahindra the only manufacturer now with a CUT that doesn稚 have def, dpf, recharge, or any of the other irritating or costly tier IV add-ons?

 

[TheMadOne]

No tractor below 75HP is required to use DEF.

Mahindra and Massey use DOC systems. That is a tier IV compliance addition.

Unlike a system with a DPF a DOC runs at a higher temp at all RPMs and all the time to make the DOC function properly. They also use more EGR than a DPF system. Both of these actions come with fuel efficiency penalties.

There is no free lunch.

 

[jeff9366]

Beginning about thirty-three horsepower most tractors have Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF).
If not DPF, the less used alternative emission technology is Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC).
Both the DPF and the DOC are honeycomb ceramic filters.
The DOC forces engine exhaust over a honeycomb ceramic structure coated with platinum, palladium, and rhodium catalysts. These catalysts oxidize carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons into carbon dioxide and water at hot exhaust temperature.


There is no catalyst associated with a Diesel Particulate Filter. A DPF is a ceramic matrix which accumulates particulates/soot at temperatures below soot ignition temperature. During regeneration, when DPF achieves and maintains 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit accumulated soot incinerates during a few minutes.


Operator Manuals for DPF equipped compact tractors do a poor job of explaining DPFs and a poor job of explaining regeneration cycles. For instance, two manuals i have viewed do not inform that soot accumulates faster during low weather temperatures, none inform time required for DPF to attain 500 degrees fahrenheit, the ignition temperature for diesel soot and none address faster soot accumulation at higher altitudes. It seems to me a DPF temperature readout on electronic instrument panels would address many DPF complaints, as would more descriptive technical writing.


As off-road diesel engines increase in displacement and horsepower emission treatment becomes increasingly complex. DPFs as a final particulate treatment are primarily associated with diesel engines <75-horespower.


Keep in mind emission standards for over-the-road diesel engined vehicles are much tighter than emission standards for off-road engines AT THIS TIME.

 

[jeff9366]

Parked Regeneration is a process on diesel engines with diesel particulate filters (DPF) that temporarily changes the operating settings of the engine to generate extra-high temperatures in the DPF to combust and consume engine exhaust products (particulates/soot) that accumulate in the DPF during normal engine operation.

Soot conversion to ash requires about sixteen minutes once DPF reaches incineration temperature (1,100 deg F.) in warm Florida. Colder temperatures and higher altitude increase soot accumulation.

Forty percent of my Kubota regenerations occur during operation at high-throttle, sixty percent parked. Your tractor operation probably varies from mine.

DPF or DOC, your Tier IV engine has a ceramic-matrix, particulate-eliminator in the exhaust stream. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH.



Regeneration is an infrequent event for my Kubota three cylinder engine.
Generally once every sixty engine hours. (Consistent in Florida due to warm weather.)

60 hours X 60 minutes = 3,600 minutes.

16 regeneration minutes /3,600 = .00444 = 4/10s of 1% of engine time is parked regeneration.

Fuel cost for sixteen minute parked regeneration @ 2,200 rpm ~~$1.00.



Diesel Particulate Filter supersedes tractor muffler.
At some point in time DPF needs to be replaced.
At some point in time tractors with mufflers need the muffler replaced.

Tire wear and tire replacement will cause as many headaches and more expense than DPF for most long term compact tractor owners who read and comprehend their Operator's Manual.

 

[jeff9366]

Five acres that need grading. Half mile of road that needs snow cleared in winter.

Tractors under 19 kW ( 19 KW = 25.4794-horsepower) are presently exempt from stringent Tier IV emission controls which abruptly increase a tractor's cost above the 19 kW power demarcation.

Every tractor brand includes a model in the 2,600 pound to 2,900 pound (bare tractor) weight range with 100 cubic inch/24 horsepower engine which may serve for your tasks.

The first tractor marketed in this category was the Kubota L2501, today Kubota's highest volume model in Florida.

 

[ericm979]

The HP breaks are at 25.5 and 75. Below 25.5 the requirements are the easiest and can be met without DPF or DOC. Above that a DPF or DOC or both are used. That's with current technology. The requirements are just limits for various pollutants, not mandates for certain technology. If someone comes up with tech that does not use a DPF or DOC that's fine as long as it meets the emissions requirements. Above 75hp the requirements are stricter and DEF is used (again that's how manufacturers are handling it now, DEF is not mandated).

Most > 25.5hp tractors use common rail EFI and the DPF ones use high temp discrete regens. Branson uses a low temp DOC+DPF with continual regen, and that allows them to use mechanical fuel injection. Like all technology choices there are plusses and minuses to all of them.

With the execption of a few models, most problems with regens are operator caused. Either the operator panics when the regen light comes on and cancels the regen and keeps doing that, or the operator runs the tractor at low rpms too much, or both.

 

[jeffgreef]

Thank you gentlemen for your thorough explanation of these technologies in general.

My question was whether Mahindra is the only manufacturer that produces a CUT without the use of these technologies, or, using only those that are not costly or problematic (DPF). Mahindra claims that their common rail diesel requires no DPF or process of regeneration, due to their investment in engine design. They have a DOC, which, as I understand it, functions similarly to a cat converter on a car and presents no additional input from the operator. DPF requires regen, and the filter itself must be replaced periodically and is very costly to do so. DEF is irrelevant in this range.

I don’t want to get a tractor which will require a periodic process of regeneration, or the replacement of an expensive filter numerous times throughout its life.

So that is my question- WHO is producing what, and what manufacturers tractors in the 40hp range do not use DPF.

Is it only Mahindra and Massey?

I’m not looking for a free lunch and don’t need to know, in general, that most tractors use this or that. I wonder if anyone is keeping track of, specifically, WHO is using WHAT.

Thanks

 

[ericm979]

The DPF should last 3000 hours. Few people will get their CUTs to that. DPFs don't have to be replaced when they clog. They can be cleaned. There are many companies that offer that service for the trucking industry.

Branson's DPF does not require a regen process.

 

[Motorboatin]

Is it only Mahindra and Massey?

Yes but Branson has a DPF system that doesnt go through regen cycle. I have no idea how the Branson system works

I have a Massey and so far it just runs like my truck without the need for DEF

 

[jeffgreef]

Well I just don’t want to get a tractor that will be a pain in the neck with the need for regeneration, clogged dpf filter, and the expense of replacing them. I’ve read that dpf filters will require replacement much sooner than 3000 hrs.

 

[TheMadOne]

Well I just don’t want to get a tractor that will be a pain in the neck with the need for regeneration, clogged dpf filter, and the expense of replacing them. I’ve read that dpf filters will require replacement much sooner than 3000 hrs.

Where have you read that? You're currently on a forum filled with owners of these machines. If there was a widespread problem I'd think we'd know about it. Also DPF filters are cleanable, at least the ones I'm aware of.

I've owned a tractor with a DPF for years. Run them hot and you'll never need a parked regen. I've never had to so much as stop working, just had to bump the throttle up and go back to what I was doing.

 

[boomer1025]

Well I just don’t want to get a tractor that will be a pain in the neck with the need for regeneration, clogged dpf filter, and the expense of replacing them. I’ve read that dpf filters will require replacement much sooner than 3000 hrs.

Well if you don't want to mess with after-treatment stuff, then look for a nice older used tractor in the horsepower range you want.

 

[deserteagle71]

Where have you read that? You're currently on a forum filled with owners of these machines. If there was a widespread problem I'd think we'd know about it. Also DPF filters are cleanable, at least the ones I'm aware of.

I've owned a tractor with a DPF for years. Run them hot and you'll never need a parked regen. I've never had to so much as stop working, just had to bump the throttle up and go back to what I was doing.

^ This. I've had my Kubota for 13 months now and all regenerations have happened while I was working the tractor. The light indicating regeneration is happening goes on on the dash, and then 15 or so minutes later it goes off. That's all there is to it - I don't have to do anything different than what I would normally do. When I first bought the tractor I was apprehensive about the process but now I know its nothing to stress over.

When I was tractor shopping a year ago I found out that the New Holland 4.75 Powerstar did not have a DPF and didn't need to go through a regenration process - it's the DOC process described above. In effect, it regenerates continuously - the instructions on the New Holland I looked at said to keep the RPMs up all the time to make sure the exhaust stayed hot.

 

[Jchonline]

Hey its your choice. Just know there are thousands and thousands of very satisfied DPF tractor owners out there. On the Massey make sure you get the newly produced model. Last years still had the DPF and they may still be on some lots.

Also be careful with the newer technology, as there may be growing pains. While the DPF might be annoying to you, in many cases it has been working fine in machines for years.

 

[Jchonline]

^ This. I've had my Kubota for 13 months now and all regenerations have happened while I was working the tractor. The light indicating regeneration is happening goes on on the dash, and then 15 or so minutes later it goes off. That's all there is to it - I don't have to do anything different than what I would normally do. When I first bought the tractor I was apprehensive about the process but now I know its nothing to stress over.

When I was tractor shopping a year ago I found out that the New Holland 4.75 Powerstar did not have a DPF and didn't need to go through a regenration process - it's the DOC process described above. In effect, it regenerates continuously - the instructions on the New Holland I looked at said to keep the RPMs up all the time to make sure the exhaust stayed hot.

Good points. In Summary, there is no free lunch. Somehow that tractor has to have something added to it to burn off the soot. DPF is one way to do it. DOC is another. Don’t think for one minute that because there is no DPF that you wont be doing something to burn it off.

 

[MaineGuy1]

Good points. In Summary, there is no free lunch. Somehow that tractor has to have something added to it to burn off the soot. DPF is one way to do it. DOC is another. Don’t think for one minute that because there is no DPF that you wont be doing something to burn it off.

Do you mean the tractor "won't be doing something to burn it off" because with my Massey engine I don't do anything, nothing at all. Now yes, the tractor has DOC and that is how it is emissions compliant. Massey also states that there exhaust gas temps are not higher because of this, I don't know if that is true. I have both a Kubota and Massey, so I visit both these dealers frequently to purchase stuff. Yes I do here the employees complaining about the DPF/Regen and yes it is mostly operator error. Especially here in Maine when it is cold you have to get your engine up to temp, that is difficult to do in some of the temps we get. I don't think there is a huge problem with DPF tractors, the issue is when you do get one that gives you trouble, it seems to always act up and it is also a headache for the dealer. Both dealers tell me they make so many house calls to hook up the computers to resolve the issues. Maybe areas that have cold winters have more troubles? I don't know.

 

[jeffgreef]

As a first-time new tractor buyer, I want to be very careful about what I buy, and particularly because it will probably be the only new tractor I ever buy. I’ll use it a lot at first and then very little, held in reserve for snow clearing. Anyway, I don’t want a problematic machine if I can get one that doesn’t have those problems.

I don’t recall where I read that DPF filters will need frequent replacement and now it’s clear they do not. However, they can become clogged through operator error and will eventually need to be professionally ash cleaned. Some people have problems with these things and these problems all flow down to the dealers, as we see from posts above. I’d rather avoid these problems altogether and have a reliable unit that requires a minimum of maintenance. That’s why my original question was- which manufacturers of CUTs don’t have them (still unanswered- I guess just Mahindra and Massey).

Why don’t I just get an older used one without it? I have been scouring craigslist for years now just to become familiar with the used market for when I eventually buy. Finding exactly what I need in hp range with quick-attach loader, midmount pto, extra hydraulics, frame-mount backhoe etc. in the used market is pretty rare. I could get a used one without all this and add it on, and in the end spend about the same money as buying new. Might as well get the whole package at once.

One more chip in the pot is I would like to be able to operate with 100 percent biodiesel. Perhaps for this reason I must buy older used, since even Mahindra, without DPF, says not to use biodiesel in the new units because they are engineered to run on dinosaur oil.

For pro operators who are used to keeping track of multiple maintenance issues on multiple machines, the extra minimal issues with DPF are minor. For ‘hobby farmers’ and other part-time operators like myself it’s just one more problem that can be avoided. As well, as the technology advances, probably all manufacturers will develop systems without DPF, like Mahindra and Massey. Then, the tractors made from 2013 to 2022 or so that DO have it will be seen as undesirable for resale, an older problematic technology like the smogged-out cars of the late 70s. This is of little concern to pro operators who aren’t thinking much about resale because they are going to use the machine through most or all of its life anyway, but for us non-pros, resale of a 15 year old unit with 1000 hrs on it is an important factor to consider.

 

[boomer1025]

Not sure you'll ever see DPF, DOC, EGR DEF go away on a diesel engine. Unless they can clean up diesel fuel to burn like gas. I think the next step will be CNG or Electric with possibly hyd or electric drive units.
Personally I want no part of diesel emission, seen what it's done to the OTR equipment and the high cost to keep it working. I'll stay with the old non-emission stuff or find older gas operated equipment.

 

[Jchonline]

As a first-time new tractor buyer, I want to be very careful about what I buy, and particularly because it will probably be the only new tractor I ever buy. I’ll use it a lot at first and then very little, held in reserve for snow clearing. Anyway, I don’t want a problematic machine if I can get one that doesn’t have those problems.

I don’t recall where I read that DPF filters will need frequent replacement and now it’s clear they do not. However, they can become clogged through operator error and will eventually need to be professionally ash cleaned. Some people have problems with these things and these problems all flow down to the dealers, as we see from posts above. I’d rather avoid these problems altogether and have a reliable unit that requires a minimum of maintenance. That’s why my original question was- which manufacturers of CUTs don’t have them (still unanswered- I guess just Mahindra and Massey).

Why don’t I just get an older used one without it? I have been scouring craigslist for years now just to become familiar with the used market for when I eventually buy. Finding exactly what I need in hp range with quick-attach loader, midmount pto, extra hydraulics, frame-mount backhoe etc. in the used market is pretty rare. I could get a used one without all this and add it on, and in the end spend about the same money as buying new. Might as well get the whole package at once.

One more chip in the pot is I would like to be able to operate with 100 percent biodiesel. Perhaps for this reason I must buy older used, since even Mahindra, without DPF, says not to use biodiesel in the new units because they are engineered to run on dinosaur oil.

For pro operators who are used to keeping track of multiple maintenance issues on multiple machines, the extra minimal issues with DPF are minor. For ‘hobby farmers’ and other part-time operators like myself it’s just one more problem that can be avoided. As well, as the technology advances, probably all manufacturers will develop systems without DPF, like Mahindra and Massey. Then, the tractors made from 2013 to 2022 or so that DO have it will be seen as undesirable for resale, an older problematic technology like the smogged-out cars of the late 70s. This is of little concern to pro operators who aren’t thinking much about resale because they are going to use the machine through most or all of its life anyway, but for us non-pros, resale of a 15 year old unit with 1000 hrs on it is an important factor to consider.

My point is you are still putting diesel (dirty fuel)into the engine. Something has to be different than a engine prior to Tier 4 in all cases (DPF, DOC, etc). So just because an engine doesnt have a DPF doesnt mean it isnt doing something else that will require maintenance down the road. For instance the Doosan engines in the new Bobcat Skid Steers uses a special fuel filter to micronize the fuel particles as before they are sucked into the engine (allows more efficient burning of fuel...less soot). These filters are expensive, and also are must more likely to clog (especially in cold weather). The filters have to be replaced every 6 months or so. There is no DPF so the Bobcat much be great right? Not when you dig into what was changed to make it Tier 4 compliant. I am not saying the Massey is the same, I am saying you should dig in and find out what compromises were made to meet Tier 4.

As far as the tractor brands.. Massey started last year. Mahindra has had them for a bit longer.

 

[jeffgreef]

Granted there will be emissions equipment on all new diesel machines from this point on. But I wonder if it will always be problematic. Mahindra appears to have made a solution that requires minimal if any extra maintenance for CUTs. No DPF, just DOC and a re-engineered engine. As yet, I haven’t heard that a Mahindra DOC needs any maintenance or replacement. This, they say, is due to the re-engineered engine. So no, I don’t think it’s inevitable that there will always be extra maintenance down the road, just like the cat converter on my 20 year old gas burner truck.