Considering ground-source heat pump, advice or suggestions?

[vulcancowboy]

We have a salesman coming tomorrow to talk to us about a ground source heat pump. We currently have 2 conventional heat pumps with an oil-fired furnace as a backup. I know there are several threads on this topic, I'm just wondering if there are specific questions I should ask or any other advice that you can share.

 

[KWentling]

We are just starting our third year with a Water Furnace Series 7 on 4 200' dry wells (vertical loops you could say). We are very pleased with it. I swear the refrigerator makes more noise than this furnace. I guess the only advice I have is to make sure it is sized right. Ask for and check out references. This was our installers first system, but he used Water Furnace's assistance in the design and we went with an extra well to be sure. I don't even have the auxiliary heat strips hooked up and it has no problem keeping up even in -30F temps. It was 98F here yesterday. It works very well cooling too.

Kim

 

[vulcancowboy]

We are just starting our third year with a Water Furnace Series 7 on 4 200' dry wells (vertical loops you could say). We are very pleased with it. I swear the refrigerator makes more noise than this furnace. I guess the only advice I have is to make sure it is sized right. Ask for and check out references. This was our installers first system, but he used Water Furnace's assistance in the design and we went with an extra well to be sure. I don't even have the auxiliary heat strips hooked up and it has no problem keeping up even in -30F temps. It was 98F here yesterday. It works very well cooling too.

Kim

Thanks, if we do it, we want to make sure it is right. I just had a conventional heat pump replaced about 4 years ago only to find it was sized too big. It doesn't run long enough to remove the humidity in the summer. Live and learn!

 

[fordmantpw]

We also have a Water Furnace Series 7. We have a 5 ton unit (also with an extra well), and we love it! As Kim mentioned, it is whisper quiet. I highly recommend Water Furnace. This is our second home with one, and my parents have had one for 15 years with one minor issue.

Spring for the 7 Series if you can. It is all variable, including the pump, compressor, and fan. This really helps keep noise down as well as the cost of operation. On average, over the course of the past 18 months in our new home, it costs about $25-30/month for HVAC. This is a 2500 sq-ft home (plus finished basement) with lots of large windows and a nearly all glass sun room on the West side of the house. We keep the temp at 75 in summer and 70 in winter. Even our HVAC contractor was amazed at the low cost of operation. Plus, you get free hot water in the process (make sure the unit has a de-superheater).

 

[MacLawn]

Wow, fordman, that is great for Missouri! I had geothermal man come a few months ago to look at my Georgia place. He said I could use 3 500' wells or the deep long ditches, about $500 more for the wells. My problem is a friend who has been an electrician for over 30 years keeps telling me they don't work good around here! His Dad had one, never was satisfied with it. He said the problem is our clay soil won't transfer the heat/cold good enough to the pipes underground. What do I know? Except I like what I've been researching on them for over 10 years now. Water Furnace would probably be my choice too.

 

[davesl708]

I have the Water Furnace Envision 3 ton with 3 175' wells. Running for five years now. Still have five more years on the warranty for the inside unit. No issues and very low cost to operate. Replaced a convention HVAC with NG heat. Cost dropped $110 per month.

My situation is similar to Fordman. Last electric bill was $71 with a hot tub running 24/7.

Love not having that noisy outside unit and the very low heat/cool cost.

 

[fordmantpw]

Wow, fordman, that is great for Missouri! I had geothermal man come a few months ago to look at my Georgia place. He said I could use 3 500' wells or the deep long ditches, about $500 more for the wells. My problem is a friend who has been an electrician for over 30 years keeps telling me they don't work good around here! His Dad had one, never was satisfied with it. He said the problem is our clay soil won't transfer the heat/cold good enough to the pipes underground. What do I know? Except I like what I've been researching on them for over 10 years now. Water Furnace would probably be my choice too.

If you do vertical wells, then that takes the clay soil out of the question since it will be rock after the first few feet. We hit water fairly quick here (strange, since we are up on a big hill) which really helps the heat transfer.

Love not having that noisy outside unit and the very low heat/cool cost.

Definitely! That is one of the great advantages!

 

[prichard]

We also have a Water Furnace Series 7. We have a 5 ton unit (also with an extra well), and we love it! As Kim mentioned, it is whisper quiet. I highly recommend Water Furnace. This is our second home with one, and my parents have had one for 15 years with one minor issue.

Spring for the 7 Series if you can. It is all variable, including the pump, compressor, and fan. This really helps keep noise down as well as the cost of operation. On average, over the course of the past 18 months in our new home, it costs about $25-30/month for HVAC. This is a 2500 sq-ft home (plus finished basement) with lots of large windows and a nearly all glass sun room on the West side of the house. We keep the temp at 75 in summer and 70 in winter. Even our HVAC contractor was amazed at the low cost of operation. Plus, you get free hot water in the process (make sure the unit has a de-superheater).

Can you tell me approximately how much more it was up front than conventional? I'm designing our last home and leaning towards these systems.

 

[vulcancowboy]

The salesman just left. His company sells Climatemaster systems. We would need two geo systems as we currently have 2 separate heat pumps with separate duct work. They do vertical loop systems. The geo units are 2 speed units. Initial cost guesstimate looks to be around $30-$35K before tax credits . This is more than I was expecting. not sure I will live long enough to recoup that investment. :confused2::confused2: Thoughts?

 

[KWentling]

Wow, fordman, that is great for Missouri! I had geothermal man come a few months ago to look at my Georgia place. He said I could use 3 500' wells or the deep long ditches, about $500 more for the wells. My problem is a friend who has been an electrician for over 30 years keeps telling me they don't work good around here! His Dad had one, never was satisfied with it. He said the problem is our clay soil won't transfer the heat/cold good enough to the pipes underground. What do I know? Except I like what I've been researching on them for over 10 years now. Water Furnace would probably be my choice too.

I think geothermal gets a bad rap because there are, or at least were, installers that didn't know how to properly size them. My Dad had one installed in the early '80s in south central Nebraska on one well, that worked most of the time, but wasn't adequate in really cold temps. It should have had two wells. As fas as not transferring good in clay soils, if that were true, mine shouldn't work either, as mine is almost totally in clay here. My wells have no water table, so maybe I should just call them vertical loops.

Kim

 

[KWentling]

The salesman just left. His company sells Climatemaster systems. We would need two geo systems as we currently have 2 separate heat pumps with separate duct work. They do vertical loop systems. The geo units are 2 speed units. Initial cost guesstimate looks to be around $30-$35K before tax credits . This is more than I was expecting. not sure I will live long enough to recoup that investment. :confused2::confused2: Thoughts?

That's probably not out of line for two systems. My justification was partially to have low bills in retirement, while getting the system paid for while I'm still working. I was at the point of having to replace the existing propane furnace, and after having to pay $4 a gallon for propane the previous winter, I bit the bullet. Absolutely do not regret it. It will be paid off this year. I can't tell you just what it costs to operate, as I still use propane for other uses, but the electric bill only went up in the $20-40 range. $40 might be too high of guess. The power company would also give me a discount rate if it were on its own meter. I need to get that done.

Kim

 

[fordmantpw]

Can you tell me approximately how much more it was up front than conventional? I'm designing our last home and leaning towards these systems.

We didn't even price it to a conventional system, but after rebates and tax credits, the differences are rather minimal. Typical payback is less than 5 years.

 

[fordmantpw]

The salesman just left. His company sells Climatemaster systems. We would need two geo systems as we currently have 2 separate heat pumps with separate duct work. They do vertical loop systems. The geo units are 2 speed units. Initial cost guesstimate looks to be around $30-$35K before tax credits . This is more than I was expecting. not sure I will live long enough to recoup that investment. :confused2::confused2: Thoughts?

Are the separate systems near each other? They should be able to zone them if the units are close. If they aren't close, they would have to run duct work from where one unit is to the other. I would talk with another company and get their input as well. We have ours zoned with 5 different zones, which helps with our efficiency since it only needs to heat/cool the area that is cooler or warmer and can run on the lower settings instead of ramping up to high:

1) Main level living room, kitchen, kids' bedrooms/bathroom
2) Main basement area
3) Master bedroom and bathrrom
4) My office in the basement (I work from home)
5) Sunroom upstairs - full of windows and we wanted it to be a 4-season room.

 

[tcartwri]

From what I've read the duct work has to be sized to the heat pump or the heat exchanger will freeze up. They need higher volume than a typical furnace/ac unit.

 

[Qapla]

Sounds interesting - but, how would it work for replacing a "package unit" where there is no "inside" air handler?

 

[vulcancowboy]

Are the separate systems near each other? They should be able to zone them if the units are close. If they aren't close, they would have to run duct work from where one unit is to the other. I would talk with another company and get their input as well. We have ours zoned with 5 different zones, which helps with our efficiency since it only needs to heat/cool the area that is cooler or warmer and can run on the lower settings instead of ramping up to high:

1) Main level living room, kitchen, kids' bedrooms/bathroom
2) Main basement area
3) Master bedroom and bathrrom
4) My office in the basement (I work from home)
5) Sunroom upstairs - full of windows and we wanted it to be a 4-season room.

They really aren't close, plus there is a block basement wall between them.

 

[vulcancowboy]

From what I've read the duct work has to be sized to the heat pump or the heat exchanger will freeze up. They need higher volume than a typical furnace/ac unit.

Yes that is very important, the installer is concerned that the duct work can handle a larger (4 ton) unit, it is currently a 3 ton.

 

[japody]

Wow, fordman, that is great for Missouri! I had geothermal man come a few months ago to look at my Georgia place. He said I could use 3 500' wells or the deep long ditches, about $500 more for the wells. My problem is a friend who has been an electrician for over 30 years keeps telling me they don't work good around here! His Dad had one, never was satisfied with it. He said the problem is our clay soil won't transfer the heat/cold good enough to the pipes underground. What do I know? Except I like what I've been researching on them for over 10 years now. Water Furnace would probably be my choice too.

MacLawn - I have horizontal loops in clay soil. No problem at all with heat transfer. We have 5 runs of 300', 6' deep, with a Bosch system. Couldn't be happier.

 

[davesl708]

I think the 30% tax credit was extended into this year. So consider that when pricing.

When I did mine with the tax credit the unit was only a little more than the top of the line conventional.
With getting rid of natural gas and the lower operating cost of my unit payback is about seven years. With a ten year warranty on parts and labor that is a good trade considering the conventional guys were telling me if I got ten years out of a new system I would be doing good.
My Barber has a unit installed in the 80's and is still going strong.

 

[fordmantpw]

From what I've read the duct work has to be sized to the heat pump or the heat exchanger will freeze up. They need higher volume than a typical furnace/ac unit.

Yes, that is very important. They have to move a LOT of air. My parents actually dump a bunch of air in their basement so that they can move enough air.

They really aren't close, plus there is a block basement wall between them.

That could present a problem then.