Compressed Natural Gas For Vehicles

[jimainiac]

I have heard that compressed natural gas could be an alternative fuel to power the nation's vehicles. Apparantly there has been a lot more gas discovered in this country, and it would help to get the country away from being held hostage to imported oil. This is not meant to be a political discussion, just a question about the reality of switching to natural gas for cars and trucks. I got this from Dr. Bill Wattenburg, a very smart guy with a weekly radio show on KGO in California. He says natural gas is the only alternative to diesel in large trucks. Recently ATT announced that they are going to switch to compressed natural gas for their vehicle fleet. A great way to phase it in would be if the federal government made the switch, then state and local governments. Any of you guys have any thoughts or knowledge about this? Our Kubota uses diesel, but I'm more concerned about being able to keep running our two thirsty gas pickups that we need to drag our horses and tractor around.

 

[burnetma]

Yes, the technology around gas drilling has changed, thus enabling gas exploration companies the ability to extract natural gas from formations that were previously thought to be uneconomical. Just do a search on Marcellus Shale and you will see the activity along the Appalachian Mountains up to about 30 miles south of I-90 in NY.

They were putting in new gas wells all over northern PA until the bottom fell out of the natural gas market. There was some price fixing going on with one of the gas producers that led to highly inflated prices and then the collapse. Frankly, they should be in jail with Maddoff, but that is another subject.

The State of New York already has several CNG stations located throughout the state. Supposedly, they are open to the public. I do not have a CNG vehicle so I have not researched it further.

To calm your nerves, it will be many years before this country has the infrastructure to support the change from a diesel economy to a CNG economy, so I would not worry about the availability of diesel fuel in the near term. Whether we can afford it in the future is another matter entirely. I just can not wait to see what our wonderful government rolls out for a carbon tax and how that will hurt our economy in the near term.

 

[Bird]

Jim, a great deal of drilling for natural gas is currently underway in the Barnett Shale area of north central Texas. CNG powered vehicles are certainly nothing new, and natural gas is a very clean burning fuel, but as to whether it'll catch on for the public, I'd only be guessing when I say I doubt it. When I started doing natural gas leakage surveys in 1993, the Atlanta, GA, gas company had dual fuel vehicles. But they had a problem with getting employees to use the natural gas instead of gasoline because of the reduction in power and the shorter range on a tank of fuel. They had two different kinds of fueling stations; one in which they could refuel almost as quickly as fueling with gasoline, the other was one in which they hooked up their pickups when they came in in the evening and left them to refuel overnight.

We do see some Postal vehicles in this area fueled by natural gas, and occasionally some other vehicle, but not many.

 

[jimainiac]

Burnetma, thanks for the input, that's interesting that New York State is getting started with some CNG stations. Getting the infrastructure in place is the idea behind the call for phasing in federal, state, and local governments first. I know it'll be a big project to get enough stations going, but a smart guy once said,"The longest journey starts with the first step". Or something like that. I'm just really worried that as soon as the economy starts to pick up, fuel prices are going to go back through the roof. I think the hybrids and the electric cars are great for commuting and light work, but there's got to be a realistic alternative to gas and diesel for heavy hauling. There doesn't seem to be enough bio for bio-diesel, and from what I've heard ethanol doesn't seem to be cost-effective, among other problems.

 

[jimainiac]

Thanks, Bird - I can only hope that people understand now, more than they did in the '90's, that we really need an alternative to foriegn oil. From what I've heard, it could be possible, if you had natural gas in your home, to be able to fill a vehicle overnight. I wouldn't mind sacrificing a little power, both of our pickups are overpowered for 99% of their work. I wonder what the natural gas would cost, mile for mile, compared to gasoline?

 

[tommu56]

We have cng forklifts at work and the service guy for the compressor travels all over the world. He said the middle east has just as many cng fueling stations as gas stations.
We are just behind the times over here they use the ng over there (its harder to ship) and ship the oil over to us.

We just ordered 2 new ones and found out that we cant get the bigger ones (12000 lb) in cng conversion company isn't making the kits for the engines.

tom

 

[chh]

There are a few cng filling stations around, but most are owned by corporations or state/city goverments for their fleets. Some vehicles are available with cng as an option to fleet users. I sure would like to see more fueling stations and conversion kits for existing vehicles. Propane was a popular conversion at one time, but kits for new vehicles are hard to find.

Drilling is sure shut down around here in Oklahoma. It sure has put a lot of people in the energy industry out of work. Gasoline is predicted to be back over $4 by the end of the year, maybe that will help get some of the interest back in alternative fuels.

 

[burnetma]

The gas companies were leasing land all around us one day and the next day you can not give away your gas rights. I expect that the price of natural gas will increase again and the boom will be on again.

 

[EastTexFrank]

There were a lot of CNG vehicles in Venezuela when I worked there. The country produces lots of oil but has little refining capacity and not a whole lot of use for the produced gas. Gasoline is dirt cheap and CNG is even cheaper. They practically give it away. The only real disadvantage to them that I saw was that the CNG tank was always in the trunk so there was little room left for carrying luggage. I think that is a design problem that could easily be fixed though as I'm sure most of the cars were originally gassers that had been converted.

 

[two_bit_score]

Every car, truck and tractor in America can be converted to run on CNG. It may not be totally practical for some ut America should be actively working toward CNG as a primary transportation fuel, especially for 18 wheelers.

The biggest thing I see wrong with the administrations energy plan is that it doesn't provide one red cent for promotion of CNG as a primary transportation fuel.

You cannot run an 18 wheeler on a windmill, a battery or a hybrid. But it will run cleaner and just as efficently on CNG as on diesel.

We need stimulus money to promote the OEM (GM, Chry, Ford) to build CNG vehicles rather than the consumer having to pay for a conversion. Tax incentives would certianly help.

Fuel stations are needed for CNG. If the first priority was 18 wheelers then cars would follow to those stations just like diesel.

You can actually get a Phill station for your home that you can use to refuel a CNG vehicle from your own natural gas supply at your home. It takes time but what is convenience worth?

We have abundant supplies of natural gas in the US and we could become free of foreign oil dependence within a relatively short time if CNG as a transportation fuel was made a priority.

 

[two_bit_score]

Thanks, Bird - I can only hope that people understand now, more than they did in the '90's, that we really need an alternative to foriegn oil. From what I've heard, it could be possible, if you had natural gas in your home, to be able to fill a vehicle overnight. I wouldn't mind sacrificing a little power, both of our pickups are overpowered for 99% of their work. I wonder what the natural gas would cost, mile for mile, compared to gasoline?

Google "Phill stations". Also, Fox Service Company in Austin Texas has a lot of good information on their website that will help you understand the ease of refueling at home with CNG.

Right now the only OEM vehicle produced to run on CNG is the Honda GX. That's really sad. Our domestic auto industry is in such a shamble and we can't buy a domestic car or truck OEM that will run on CNG.

It's also a national security issue when you consider how much money we send over to foreign governments every month to import oil for transportation use when we have an abundant supply of natural gas.

Were we to really utilize domestically produced natural gas as a transportation fuel we could revolutionize our country and keep a lot of money at home.

 

[Redneck in training]

The beauty of the gasoline or diesel is it packs lot of energy in small package stored in light more or less flat tank somewhere under the car. CNG in other hand is much less concentrated, requires heavy and strong tank of approximatelly round shape. Many cars in example in Europe use CNG but the tank takes about half of the trunk space while the range of car is about half.
All CNG cars I saw also run on gasoline. Don't know if it is currently possible to convert diesel to CNG. The smaller is the vehicle the less practical CNG is and vice versa.

 

[Dargo]

Jim, a great deal of drilling for natural gas is currently underway in the Barnett Shale area of north central Texas. CNG powered vehicles are certainly nothing new, and natural gas is a very clean burning fuel, but as to whether it'll catch on for the public, I'd only be guessing when I say I doubt it.

I have to agree with Bird. I don't see it happening. I make my living in and around the auto industry and the concept of CNG has come and gone. Apparently after spending untold millions on research the conclusion was that it just won't work. I saw the long several page list of the reasons why, but I just glanced over it when I saw it because it was already proclaimed as dead and I had no reason to learn more about it.

Where I live our utility provider has had a fleet of small vehicles using CNG for years but that's it. They have a monetary reason to try to push the agenda since they sell NG but not gasoline or diesel. Still one of my friends who works for the utility company says nobody there wants to drive those vehicles because they are slow and have very short ranges.

 

[orezok]

CNG is a viable alternate for fleet use. Here in California, we are not allowed to procure diesel busses to transport children to school They must be CNG or Propane. About 50% of our fleet is now CNG. There are several advantages. Maintenance on the engines has considerably decreased. When diesel was $4+ per gallon we were making CNG for about $1 per gallon. We saved over $200K just last year on fuel.

The disadvantages are the shorter range and slightly lesser power. We have both slow fill and fast fill capability and the slow fill is a perfect solution for school busses.

Most of our white fleet is also going to CNG. We tried conversions on some of our gas units 4 or 5 years ago and they were less than successful but now every major manufacturer offers CNG as a factory option.

The other advantage is that they are exempt for smog checks.

If you want to see the availability and current cost for CNG in your area, go here.

CNG stations and Prices for the US, Canada and Europe

 

[jimainiac]

Thanks everbody for all the information provided - I've learned a lot already. We don't have natural gas in our town, but it is available in the area. There are a couple of pipelines from Canada that run through Maine and join in Portland to go south. It was really interesting to go to that website that shows where natural gas stations are, and the price. Obviously there are pros and cons to cng, and it might not be practical for everybody, but the more people that use it the less gasoline we need, seems to me. We don't generally travel too far from home, making short trips, so in that way we'd be good candidates for cng if we could get rigged up for it.
I figured there was probably a wealth of information out there among the TBN members, and I certainly haven't been disappointed once again!

 

[Wis Bang]

Propane! You can get filled at alot of Propane Jobbers & get a home fueling station. The HP problen can be dealt with [Trucks had a show reciently converting a pickup] and in addition to the fuel cost difference, you can double/tripple oil change intervals 'cause it burns much cleaner than gas. Engine life is also much longer so you could hit 500K with out a re-build.

Dual fuel setups are a compromise while a direct propane only setup can be tuned for performance.

 

[Redneck in training]

Propane! You can get filled at alot of Propane Jobbers & get a home fueling station. The HP problen can be dealt with [Trucks had a show reciently converting a pickup] and in addition to the fuel cost difference, you can double/tripple oil change intervals 'cause it burns much cleaner than gas. Engine life is also much longer so you could hit 500K with out a re-build.

Dual fuel setups are a compromise while a direct propane only setup can be tuned for performance.

Most modern dual fuel (read fuel injected and CNG) cars are tuned for normal performance with either fuel. Less power with CNG is related to energy content of CNG versus gasoline.

Propane is a byproduct of refining of crude into gasoline, diesel, light and heavy heating oil, asphalt, lubricants etc. so that is not real substitute for natural gas. There is only smal amount of propane, propylene, ethylene, butane and other gasses in natural gas.

 

[Renze]

In Holland, they have tried CNG on an agricultural tractor already in 1989: a guy from the agricultural university converted a petrol Ferguson TEF to CNG.

Biggest problems with CNG:
-you need to bring 4x bigger tanks, compared to LPG which means a lot of volume
-engines dont last as long on CNG as they do on diesel
-because of the lower comrpession ratio needed, its not just that easy to convert

Because of that, the biggest application in Holland are city buses, that have a row of tanks on top of the roof or under the floor, anywhere where unused space is.

In England, 2 years ago an agricultural university tested with mixed fuel: They sprayed CNG into the manifold of an old Scania 141 V8 truck: Power rose from 350 to 380 hp and specific fuel consumption dropped 10% because the CNG acted as an accelerator to the Diesel combustion process, causing a cleaner better burn of the diesel.

In other experiments, other researchers used even a 1/3 Diesel, 2/3 CNG mixture successfully.

The beauty of mixed fuel, is that you can keep the compression ratio of the Diesel, work with an unrestricted air flow and have the Diesel combust the CNG. Normally you need the correct air/fuel mixture, but the burning Diesel ignites the relatively lean CNG/Diesel/air mixture well.

 

[Frankdozer]

I once was told that if you fill the trailer tires with propane, the tires last longer and the payload is increased. NOT !!!!