Charging problem

[vongiese]

Not sure if this is way out there, but i took the alternator and regulator from my 2210D to the local Auto electric shop and they tested both, found the regualtor to be faulty, ordered me a new regulator for $18. They said it was the same as the regualtor out of the older Datsuns....
This regulator is solid state as compred to the old mechanical one.

 

[bruce1966us]

I believe the unit is a rectifier only and since they work with such low voltage a regulator is deemed not necessary.

Bruce

 

[Inspector507]

My own 2 cents.......but I think I'd have just bought the right Yanmar part and made it easier for the next owner to have OEM parts on his tractor. But this is only my opinion. I hope to pass my equipment on to my son(s). Have no idea what tey're gonna do with it in an aprtment though.

 

[bruce1966us]

Jerry, I agree with you unless the $50-$60 saved might be used for more needy things!? This has been a great thread! Look how far it has went compared to others. We have some knowledgeable people here and I like reading everyone's opinion.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[gbirky]

vongiese,
I only wish the guys that tested mine could do the same. When they told me the regulator was bad, I asked if they had something with which to replace it. They said NO.

Greg

 

[gbirky]

Jerry,
I think I said this earlier, but here it is - I will replace it with the correct part for as you say the next possible owner. I just wanted to understand what the VR actually does in this system.

Greg

 

[normde2001]

Anything to keep this thread alive......Greg, you said a while back that you were getting DC out of your alternator, but not how many volts. Assuming it is above 14.5DC+-, whatever it takes to get to that voltage is then left up to the regulator.

 

[gbirky]

normande2001,
I had it checked by the auto electric place. I have the tag somewhere on which they wrote the resulting voltage and current. As I remember, it was considerably above 12DC. I'll check today and get back.

Greg

 

[Keoke]

Greg, ok, I got it straight between yours and Jim's alternators.
He is external rectified and yours is internal.
I understand that your alternator works fine on a test bench but not on tractor. Am I right here?
If your wiring diagram is correct, then there should be no reason an alt with a perm mag field should not work at max chg with the voltage reg disconnected. The regulator, in your case can ONLY limit the amount of charge but can not prevent charging because it has no control over your alternators magnetic field strength as is done in conventional alternators.
It possible, but not likely, in your case that the VR is taking the alt output and bleeding all of it off to gnd. This is why you want to disconnect it when checking your alt for output so that it is not a player.
1. Does your tractor have a charge indicator lamp? If it does it needs to have a lamp controller switch. All systems with indicator lamps must have a switching circuit of some kind to turn lamp on and off. This switch is usually built into VR. Your wiring diagram shows no indicator lamp circuit and that has got me wondering. The wire that you show coming from the VR (R) and going to the battery would most likely be the one going to the charge indicator lamp. This wire would be used to put B+ on the back side of lamp thus turning it off when alt charges.
The B+ for the front side of lamp would come from ignition switch. In other words lamp would be in series between ignition switch and the VR (controller) unit. The VR provides the gnd for lamp when key is turned on, the VR then replaces the gnd with B+ when alt charges thus turning lamp off.

2. With VR? disconnected do you show 14/15 volts DC at alt terminal (R) that goes to battery? If answer is "Yes" then does the same or close voltage show at battery B+ terminal?
If answer is Yes to voltage at alt but NO to voltage at battery then there is an open or very high resistance between the two points.

3. The AC tap (Y) coming out of your alternator is most often used to control a charge indicator lamp or run a tachometer on diesel engines not using a mechanical tach.

4. On Jim's unit (5amps) there is no need to control the charge amps since this rate, minus constant fuel solenoid draw, is like leaving battery on a trickle charger.

5. One last point, using an analog dc volt meter (needle type) on an AC circuit will only show half of the AC voltage present (pos side of sine wave) . You can double this number to get a rough idea of the full cycle peak to peak AC voltage present in stator. You must hook meter from one of the two AC taps on your alt to vehicle gnd. Do NOT hook DC analog meter across the two AC taps because the negative half of the AC wave will try to force needle down below zero and you may never see it again.

cheers,

 

[Soundguy]

Just a technical point here, Unless the fellow has a true peak reading vom, ( chances are no, if it is an inexpensive dc only job) then he is going to read the rms voltage, which is .707 of the peak.
If this is the case, he can multiply the voltage he reads by 1.414, that will be apporximately peak, then times 2 will be peak to peak.


Not trying to split hairs.. just keeping the thread fun for the observers taking notes.

Soundguy

"5. One last point, using an analog dc volt meter (needle type) on an AC circuit will only show half of the AC voltage present (pos side of sine wave) . You can double this number to get a rough idea of the full cycle peak to peak AC voltage present in stator. You must hook meter from one of the two AC taps on your alt to vehicle gnd. Do NOT hook DC analog meter across the two AC taps because the negative half of the AC wave will try to force needle down below zero and you may never see it again."

 

[Inspector507]

Greg,
I saw the response you gave earlier, but was unable to respond, I was at work.........busy busy busy.
Glad you might replace it with an OEM part. Makes it easier in the future for you or the next owner to work on it. I have a house that the dreaded "Previous Owner" tried to do things he had no idea about what was going on.
I just got lost in all the technical stuff and all the different systems on different tractors. Figured it would be easier to replace like for like and get it over with. There is so much knowledge here, it kinda makes the head spin "hearing" it all in the posts.

 

[normde2001]

I have been using VOM meters for over 40 years and personally have never seen a DC only meter. Whether it be a $5 dime store analog, $90 "Triplet" analog or $200 "Fluke" digital, 120VAC has always read 120VAC. They must be pretty rare.

 

[Keoke]

Norm, automotive, truck and tractor repair shop all use analog DC voltmeters extensively. This is especially true when they are measuring dynamic circuit resistance (voltage drop at load).
Analog VOM's (Volt, ohm meters combined) have never been real popular with the above shops.
Today of course, for static circuit resistance measurement, most shops are now using the ohm function of their digital
multi-meters.
Analog ohm meters, however, have an advantage over digital ohmeters meters in that they can be used to test diodes while they are still attached to the coils or stators they are wired into. This is a distinct advantage especially when the diodes are sodered into circuit.

cheers,

 

[Soundguy]

I've seen limited dc only jobs at automotive stores. Seems some of the mechanics are only interested in the continuity and dc voltage function. ( I guess they assume that is all you will need ). Ive even seen some of these 9.99 jobs that do the dc, ohm, and timing. ( actually a nice feature ).
As for the 120vac, remember that that is 120vac(RMS), not peak, or peak to peak. Rarely do you see a peak reading voltmeter for consumer use. That said though, most of the mid to high end meters that do freq. counting, or have osciliscope functions, probably definately read rms. peak, and peak to peak, as a function of their design.

Soundguy

"I have been using VOM meters for over 40 years and personally have never seen a DC only meter. Whether it be a $5 dime store analog, $90 "Triplet" analog or $200 "Fluke" digital, 120VAC has always read 120VAC. They must be pretty rare. "

 

[gbirky]

George,
Thanks for all the good information. Here are a few more comments and information.

The place I took the alternator and regulator tested both, and told me the alternator was good, but the regulator was bad.

1. The tractor does NOT have a charge indicator lamp.

2. I never checked the alternator myself. I tried looking for the ticket the shop wrote on indicating the voltage and current generated by the alternator. I couldn't find it. I has more pressing matters as I found that the brakes had locked up, and I had to disassmble them. I have no reason to believe that there is a poor connection between alt and bat, as I replaced this lead since it had been fried by DPO.

3. An interesting concept on which I'd like more information. My tractor doesn't have a tach, and I would like to add one. Where do I get such a meter, and how would I hook it up?

4. I suspect that my system has just as low a current generated, but still has a regulator besides the rectifier. Maybe its OK to run it without the VR, but the engineers who designed the thing must have thought differently.

5. I have a cheap Radio Shack VOM that reads both AC and DC. I haven't used it to check this system.

Greg

 

[gbirky]

Jerry,
Putting some non OEM VR on this tractor (YM1110D) doesn't really phase me at this point as I have had to make a number of other modifications. The most important of which is to replace the front (4x4) axle with one from a different model (YM1100D) tractor. I had to move it forward about 7" and am having the steering linkage lengthened to accomodate the new axle location. I can now put a much larger belly mower on this thing if I wanted. Unfortunately, I don't think I can hook up the drive to the front axle as I believe the axle ratio is different. So this tractor is going to be a real mess - and I'll probably end up keeping it because of that.

Once I'm done, I'll take a couple of photos of this odd beast to show everyone.
Greg

 

[Soundguy]

Wow.. no tach on a tractor..... I would think that a tach and an oil lamp and temp lamp are minimums for tractor usage.

Did it have one oem and is missing? Or is there no evidence that it ever had one.

Soundguy

 

[gbirky]

Soundguy,
This particular model never had a tach or hour meter. It does have oil and temp lights. It is a very small tractor - no bigger than a good garden tractor. But it is a diesel, and it is 4x4. I completely tore down the engine and rebuilt it, the only thing I didn't do is put new sleeves in it because they measured out to new spec. Its a 2 cylinder, only about 13 hp, but built like a tank. I think the crankshaft alone weighs more than the entire engine on my 16hp lawn tractor. I'll post photos when I get a chance.
Greg

 

[Soundguy]

Ok, now our interest is peaked again.. I looked at your bio, but it doesn't list the tractor type.

Soundguy

 

[gbirky]

Soundguy,
I'll go edit my bio to include this information. Right now I have: YM1110D - bad front axle, YM1110D (a second one) bad valves (I think), YM1301D with loader - a sweet little tractor, YM1510D with loader - not pretty but mechanically sound, F15D needs paint. At some point, I guess I'll have to sell a couple. The YM1510D, and F15D will go first I think.

I attached a photo of the YM1301D.

These Yanmars are kind of a hobby for me.

Greg