battery charger on timer?

[patrick_g]

That's a good plan. Kind like with fuel filters.. you can either change them based on set hurs or months.. or you can push them till the plug.. the difference is you may get another month or few more hours down the road.. however.. you may be changing the fuel filter on the side of that road instead of setting home eating dinner.

Soundguy

There are better alternatives to waiting for a filter to plug or to change it by schedule or miles. I have a filter minder on the air cleaner (OEM Dodge) to tell me the % life left in the filter. This lets me change the filters based on measured performance not miles or months.

I have installed an after market spin-on fuel filter to replace the OEM canister hidden where no man has gone before it came with. The filter holder assy has a pressure gauge across the input and output to read the back pressure of the filter. There is a red line at the pressure Cummins recommends as max before changing filters. I always change before it gets that bad but not by miles or months. Changing based on measurements instead of miles or months makes better sense. Do you fill your fuel tank based on miles or time since filing or do you use a fuel gauge?

I treat batteries similarly. A simple fast and easy load test will often detect a degradation of performance before you have a failure and get stranded. It is not a perfect world. Batteries or any other component can fail catastrophically at any time but the odds arre stacked way in favor of actually measuring things instead of working to a fixed schedule.

Isn't that what some of the more sophisticated cars are doing now with oil? They actually look at particulate levels and warn you when to change based on the actual contamination levels of the oil instead of by time or miles.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

I guess I'll just have to disagree.

I really don't have the need for a float or computerized charger. For my farm duties.. I've either got a weak battery that needs a boost to start.. thus neeidng a beefy charger with a 50+a booster setting, Or one with a hefty charge setting like 10a or 25a that I can kick on while I grab a sandwhich and then kick her over to boost to make her start.

Not having power out where the bulk of my equipment is parked makes having a float charger more than useless.

Having anything but the most expensive computerized chargers that have an overide setting is also more than useless on a battery that is stone dead.. or even has taken on a small residual reverse charge. In the past i've tried to use computerized chargers of cheap and mid grade, and had them refuse to charge a dead or reversed battery. For the money of the super-duper controller ones.. i can have a 5-8x bigger 'plain' charger/booster.

Besides.. it aint that hard to peer down into a cell and check water level.

Peak charge voltage only becomes an issue when the battery is at or near full charge, and the duration is ongoning.. which I specifically specified.. I.E. a plain charger is fine if the user is tending to it.

If the average 'joe' lacks the grey matter to use a vom.. thet's their problem. They can either read the chinglish manual.. or buy a nice one and read the 5 language manual.. or better yet.. they could have taken electronics in school instead of study hall or golf.. or even better.. taken some usefull electronics courses in college either as electives if they had a non tech major.. or as applicable courses in the case of a tech major. Still.. there are also many opportunities with adult enrichment classes in many communities.


There are some things the average person should know how to do.. even if they ar physically unable to do them.. or lack the proper tools.

Changin' oil, and reading a vom are 2 of those high up on the ( my ) list.
Same with computers... in the old iron days.. people were computer users.. nowadays many people are computer operators.. can be said of most devices and appliances.. people know how to operate them.. but not what makes them tick.. or how to repair them... i see this as a HUGE problem in our society.. and may eventually lead to our downfall as other countries are relied upon for 'service'.. as we become a huge island of no-nothings..


Soundguy

I tend to basically disagree that an amp meter or voltmeter as typically employed by the average joe will show you the danger of too long of a charger session. The killer effect is the peak voltage in the waveform of the plain Jane charger.

Even though average current or average voltage is not showing too high a level so as to indicate overdoing it, the voltage peaks will tend to boil off electrolyte.

I agree completely that for a short session (not days on end) the old fashion or simple DIY charger is likely fine. The dual timer arrangement mentioned before was a clever self defense move against the vagaries of the old fashion charger.

Most new chargers of decent design go into a float condition after the heavy lifting has been completed and are safe for longer sessions without needing a timer.

On another but related note. Lets say you buy a solar panel that will make a few amps in bright sun. It is sold for use in 12VDC batt charging applications. You hook it up and aim it south and up at a 45 degree angle and walk away a happy camper. Later you measure the voltage and it is 14.2 (Hooray!) and you even use an amp clamp or open the ckt and insert an amp meter and see only a several hundred miliamps (Again Hooray!)

Then months later you find the battery electrolyte mostly gone and the battery ruined, WHY?? Most solar panels for 12 volt nominal service put out at least 20 volts or more. Without a charge controller (active circuitry) the panel doesn't quit charging at 14.2 vdc or so, it just slows down some.

Most small solar panels sold for putting on your dash or whatever and plugging into your lighter outlet do not come with controllers. If they are small enough in area and thus output they may never cause a problem but if you get a larger panel with some umph and don't use a controller it can overcharge and damage the batt over time.

IF you have an old fashion charger, using it with a timer may be a safer approach but getting a modern charger with tapered charge and float is a better idea. They often have a switch to select deep cycle or starter service batt.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

I do have an pressure meter on a newer tractor.. but not the oldies.

A sensor on the fuel would be kinda hard to retrofit on my tractors... as the point of this discussion was for tractor applications.

As for battery life... again.. back to the ammeter.

A dash mounted ammeter wired in a net charge scheme will tell you loads about your tractor electrical system. You start seeing higher than normal charge levels.. then you know your battery needs checking.

Soundguy

There are better alternatives to waiting for a filter to plug or to change it by schedule or miles. I have a filter minder on the air cleaner (OEM Dodge) to tell me the % life left in the filter. This lets me change the filters based on measured performance not miles or months.

I have installed an after market spin-on fuel filter to replace the OEM canister hidden where no man has gone before it came with. The filter holder assy has a pressure gauge across the input and output to read the back pressure of the filter. There is a red line at the pressure Cummins recommends as max before changing filters. I always change before it gets that bad but not by miles or months. Changing based on measurements instead of miles or months makes better sense. Do you fill your fuel tank based on miles or time since filing or do you use a fuel gauge?

I treat batteries similarly. A simple fast and easy load test will often detect a degradation of performance before you have a failure and get stranded. It is not a perfect world. Batteries or any other component can fail catastrophically at any time but the odds arre stacked way in favor of actually measuring things instead of working to a fixed schedule.

Isn't that what some of the more sophisticated cars are doing now with oil? They actually look at particulate levels and warn you when to change based on the actual contamination levels of the oil instead of by time or miles.

Pat

 

[patrick_g]

Soundguy, you said "I guess I'll just have to disagree."

Maybe so but not over much. I am in virtual total agreement with your last post. I know how to use all the above but even folks who know the basics of a VOM may not be hip to the peak voltage of the waveform. I think we are in violent agreement much more than any differences.

Your practical approach and understanding wasn't attained easily or in a couple entry level classes. I was aimed at the typical guy who is better off with a modern charger.

About those chargers that won't charge when you need it the most. Aren't they wonderful?

It never hurts to have one of those old dinosaurs on wheels like the corner gas station had 40 years ago for when you really need some juice. You don't leave then hooked up unattended for a month or two but they serve a purpose in the hands of an experienced person.

Ever use your stick welder on DC for a battery charger? That'll git 'er done!

Still laughing about Chinglish, first time I heard it. Knew about Spanglish but not Chinglish. If you can't read pigeon you might as well not open a manual these days.

I have wasted some time this PM on the phone with Indians and Phillipinos not getting any help for down loading video to computer from Sony not so Handycam.

A continuar este conversacion in Engles, por favor tocar numero dos. Deposito dow mil veinty cinco centavos para cinco minutos.

Pat

 

[Bedlam]

Patrick,
I hear ya on the gloves. these wouldn't be better than a good pair that you've tried on. I just like that I don't care if I lose them

The actual meaning of that link was a joke. If you watch Jay Leno, you know he has a skit where he shows things that are mis labeled etc.

I believe this ad is one. They have it labeled as a sports first aid kit.
GREAT SAVINGS!

Allan

 

[patrick_g]

Allan, The challenge is to think of the sport and the injury that validates the advertisement!

Lets see... maybe a 48 hour marathon buffalo milking contest during the winter solstice in Minot ND. The gloves would protect your chapped hands during the finals if you made it through the prelilms.

Pat

 

[Bedlam]

 

[Soundguy]

Actually, after going back and re-reading everything from the start.. I agree.

I've never used the dc setting on an arc welder as a bat charger.. however i have used a dc arc welder to warm some things up.. I've also used car batteries as a dc arc welder... just got to be carefull.

In retrospect.. i agree on the classes ( though a couple entry level classes would be great info for the general public... might prevent a few forks in toasters.. etc )

I'll go with the violent agreement then.. it does seem more fitting.

Soundguy

Soundguy, you said "I guess I'll just have to disagree."

Maybe so but not over much. I am in virtual total agreement with your last post. I know how to use all the above but even folks who know the basics of a VOM may not be hip to the peak voltage of the waveform. I think we are in violent agreement much more than any differences.

Your practical approach and understanding wasn't attained easily or in a couple entry level classes. I was aimed at the typical guy who is better off with a modern charger.

About those chargers that won't charge when you need it the most. Aren't they wonderful?

It never hurts to have one of those old dinosaurs on wheels like the corner gas station had 40 years ago for when you really need some juice. You don't leave then hooked up unattended for a month or two but they serve a purpose in the hands of an experienced person.

Ever use your stick welder on DC for a battery charger? That'll git 'er done!

Still laughing about Chinglish, first time I heard it. Knew about Spanglish but not Chinglish. If you can't read pigeon you might as well not open a manual these days.

I have wasted some time this PM on the phone with Indians and Phillipinos not getting any help for down loading video to computer from Sony not so Handycam.

A continuar este conversacion in Engles, por favor tocar numero dos. Deposito dow mil veinty cinco centavos para cinco minutos.

Pat

 

[john_bud]

With a good charger you do not need a timer.... But better yet, with a good battery you will not need to worry about the charger. Replace your battery every other year and you have to worry about it.




Gary

Gary,

Whether you are showing Yankee Thrift, or wisdom beyond your years is possibly up for debate. All I know, is it would be great if you lived near me, so I could get your "old" batteries! What some people may not realize is that Maine gets sort of chilly (like WI) and that is when a battery will fail. Changing a battery out, jumping a dead battery or even putting on a charger are all easy to do --> when it's 45F or warmer. Quite the different story at -30F with a stiff wind and snow swirling!!


Keep warm,
jb

 

[Doc_Bob]

Gary,

Changing a battery out, jumping a dead battery or even putting on a charger are all easy to do --> when it's 45F or warmer. Quite the different story at -30F with a stiff wind and snow swirling!!
jb

You said it all.
Bob

 

[patrick_g]

John, et al, I got my arctic survival training at Minot AFB North Dakota in three consecutive winters where it was more than 40 below zero every winter. My personal worst was being out in -47F and this was thermometer not wind chill. Windchill was estimated to freeze exposed flesh in less than 10 seconds, how much less they didn't calculate. I tried to not expose flesh. Luckily I was younger if you get my drift.

I am truly sympathetic to those who must brave the elements to git 'er done when conditions are that hostile. We often removed the batts from our POV and took them inside so they would be warm and work better. Spray cans of ether were often required to start a cold soaked car engine in addition to a functional (warm) batt. We did a loot of battery changing, charging, etc.

Even a fully charged battery that is really cold has way lower cranking ability so a solar panel or batt maintainer is better than nothing but doesn't help much at super low temps. A regular batt charger pumping 10 amps into 12.6 volts with a well charged batt is disapating over 100 Watts of heat in the battery and that helps warm it up even at the cost of having to add some distilled water once in a while. Don't do this unattended, overnight, or similar.

Starting a cold soaked diesel engine with a cold soaked battery (and resisting the temptation to risk blowing it up with ether) is an iffy proposition much below zero F. In last 7 years we have only got down to zero and no lower. I can start anything I own at zero with no assistance. At significantly lower temps I'd be using a jump from a running vehicle or WARM batt for a vehicle I couldn't get too with an extension cord. Shiver me timbers mates I get chills just recalling Minot!

My Lincoln tombstone has greater output on AC than DC so metallic pipe thawing and such is conducted wilth AC. If you don't over do it a dose of DC from your arc welder will give a flat or cold batt some help. Start at low amp settings.

Welding with a car batt is tricky. A 12 volt batt just kinda sorta cuts the mustard and two batts in series for 24 volts is pretty wild. The 24 volts works well with "CUT ROD."

Oh, and SoundGuy... I thiink everyone should have to take and pass Home Economics (boys too). I also think everyone with a driver's lisc who is not officially handicapped should have to pass a simple set of practical demonstrations to include changing a tire or if physically challenged (tiny person) direct the changing of a tire, check the oil, top off the radiator with coolant, check and adjust tire prressure, read the signs of misallignment and improper tire pressure on tire tread, and on and on or no drivers lisc. Practical electricity test would include knowlege of using a simple circuit tester or VOM and a basic understanding of computing electrical loads so as to stay within safe ratings of extension cords, breakers, etc.

There is no reason why a highschool graduate shouldn't be able to sew up a tear in clothes or sew on a button, cook a meal, adjust tire pressure and such. There are more important skills than memorizing a multidimensional matrix populated with different monsters requiring different weapons to kill so as to get a higher video game score than your classmate and not be able to go from a basket of groceries to a cooked meal.

Of course one of my less popular ideas is to require a meat lisc. If you haven't taken a tour of a slaughter house and participated in all phases then you get no meat lisc and can't buy any meat product raw or prepared including a Big Mac.

Pat

 

[GaryE]

Gary,

Whether you are showing Yankee Thrift, or wisdom beyond your years is possibly up for debate. All I know, is it would be great if you lived near me, so I could get your "old" batteries! What some people may not realize is that Maine gets sort of chilly (like WI) and that is when a battery will fail. Changing a battery out, jumping a dead battery or even putting on a charger are all easy to do --> when it's 45F or warmer. Quite the different story at -30F with a stiff wind and snow swirling!!


Keep warm,
jb

I don't know about wisdom.... Maybe self preservation!!!!



Not to turn this thread any more than it already has but....


Woke up this morning about 6:30 to take the dog out, it was about 6F. Really not to bad, no wind and low humidity. So I did not even think it was really that cold. Had a 10am appointment about 15 minutes from here, so about 9:35 went out to start up the truck. Had the block heater plugged in, cycled the glow plugs, and cranked away. It fired right up, ran for about 3 seconds... flared up to about 2,000 RPMs and died. Cranked it up again ... no go... no fuel?
Pulled the fuel filter... can you say gel???? Ok, one would think fuel puchased 3 weeks ago would have been winter ready. Guess not!
As much as you think you are ready for cold.... It can always bite you in the ***. So for those who think changing out your batteries every couple of years is a bit excessive, you are more than welcome to be at my beck and call to get me started!!!! I will even pay you $50 a year for your services!!!!!


And JB the old batteries are free for the taking!


Gary

 

[Soundguy]

I agree completely. back when i was in school.. economics was required, as was typing, and at least one vo-tech type class.. like power mechanics, agriculture, construction, or electronics. Most peopl echose ag or power mech, as they were easy. I ended up doing 3 ys each of electronics and const, and a couple summer ag courses on a work program, just to get a couple extra credits... it was very enriching.. and way better than a stupid study hall.. or golf.. etc / tennis.. etc.

We also had a 'lifestyles' class that was mandatory half credit.. taught you how to run a bufget, ballance a checkbook, and do a fake shopping list, fake stock trades, and how to plan a driving trip including miles/ fuel stops, food, etc, again.. usefull stuff... ( that they are probably not teaching now... )

Soundguy

Oh, and SoundGuy... I thiink everyone should have to take and pass Home Economics (boys too). I also think everyone with a driver's lisc who is not officially handicapped should have to pass a simple set of practical demonstrations to include changing a tire or if physically challenged (tiny person) direct the changing of a tire, check the oil, top off the radiator with coolant, check and adjust tire prressure, read the signs of misallignment and improper tire pressure on tire tread, and on and on or no drivers lisc. Practical electricity test would include knowlege of using a simple circuit tester or VOM and a basic understanding of computing electrical loads so as to stay within safe ratings of extension cords, breakers, etc.

There is no reason why a highschool graduate shouldn't be able to sew up a tear in clothes or sew on a button, cook a meal, adjust tire pressure and such. There are more important skills than memorizing a multidimensional matrix populated with different monsters requiring different weapons to kill so as to get a higher video game score than your classmate and not be able to go from a basket of groceries to a cooked meal.

Of course one of my less popular ideas is to require a meat lisc. If you haven't taken a tour of a slaughter house and participated in all phases then you get no meat lisc and can't buy any meat product raw or prepared including a Big Mac.

Pat

 

[Dusty]

This thread is missing the certain pizazz that a certain other member could bring to it. We need to have the "I used one of those chargers and my battery exploded" type posts.

I use the HF units and they work well for my purposes.

 

[5030tinkerer]

Sorry to take this back to the business at hand, but...

I don't yet have AC power run with my house building project. Until that shows up, I have 6 100aH Dynasty batteries (UPS Battery - UPS 12-310) wired in parallel connected to a 5000w inverter. I fire up the generator when the voltage drops to 12.46 (not sure that this is the "right" number be using) and transfer all loads to it while an oldie but goodie Schumacher 10 amp charger recharges the batteries (I think I would benefit from a beefier charger actually). Obviously, I don't want to be running this generator longer than necessary and the 5000 watts is more than plenty to be running table saws, etc. anyway. As the batteries approach a more fully charged state, the number of amps being pushed into them decreases thus decreasing the benefit of running the generator. Here's the questions: how can I determine the most efficient use of the generator (i.e. not necessarily charging the batteries fully each time, but not giving them such a superficial charge as to hurt them)? What voltage SHOULD I be letting these batteries drop to prior to charging them? What amperage rate SHOULD they be recharged at? These are NOT automotive batteries, but are recycled from a computer backup power system. Enough juice is flowing into the batteries at the 12.46 voltage that the charger periodically shuts down, I'm guessing to allow the transformer to cool...

 

[patrick_g]

Simple chargers taper off as the batt voltage rises, not due to clever circuitry but because the difference between the applied voltage and the voltage of the battery is getting smaller. As batt V gets bigger you get less charge. Great stuff, sorta.

If the charger in question really is a DUMB charger, just a transformer and rectifiers (humor on this down page) with no IC's or such then when the charge tapers off below 5 amps you could hook it to 230 volt output of the generator and get more charging current. There is most probably a thermal cutout in series with the output and it may not be in good shape (on calibration) and shuts off at well under 10 amps.

In the olden days these simple chargers used what we came to call, selenium rectum fiers. We came to this name because when you had a selinum rectifier go bad it emitted a distinctive odor that was so bad that we started calling them selinium rectum fiers .

If you have access to an adjustable autoformer, Variac is one, you could boost the input voltage running your charger a little at a time as charging amps fell. You might want to spend a couple bucks at an autoparts store and buy a thermal cut out designed for 10-12 amps to replace your tired one. Then it won't interfere so much with charging progress. If you place the charger where it is exposed to cooling temps or breezes that will help. A small fan blowing into the case woulid surely help.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

Gotta love those old selenium rectifiers... truly the 'stone knives and bar skins, of electronics when it comes to solid state rectification.

Soundguy

 

[GaryE]

Gotta love those old selenium rectifiers... truly the 'stone knives and bar skins, of electronics when it comes to solid state rectification.

Soundguy

Maybe we should just go back to 5U4's, this way we could heat the barns and tractors along with them!
Gary

 

[Soundguy]

Gotta love a tube filled with a radioactive gas that glows purple when running...

Soundguy

 

[patrick_g]

I prefer the milspec version of the 5R4 with the ceramic base and flat top on the envelope. I had a pair of those in a Scott brand (actually Scott Kit) power amp I built. It was in fact (with help from the industrial type power amp tubes) quite a: 1. portable hernia to carry, and 2. a good room heater for my batchelor quarters at Minot AFB.

Pat