Basic Solar Installation

[fatjay]

We just got a quote for an 8,000 KW 20 panel ground mounted system for our shop. Total cost was $26,200. That did not include any batteries for storage. It would generate about 1,000 kWh per month.

Solar is the "big thing" these days. That doesn't include permitting or grid tie connection fee. That 26k is $4-6k in products on hte high end, they're pocketing at least 20k. Panel price has absolutely crashed, inverters aren't that expensive.

 

[fatjay]

With a life expectancy of 25 years and then those panels become hazardous waste and must be disposed of in an approved landfill, at your expense of course. I have no desire to look out my window and see black solar panels blocking my view of the ag landscape around us.... and of course where the raw materials come from for those panels and where they are made as well (for the most part). Not for me, maybe for thee however.

After 25 years, they will still have at least 80% production. Panels are incredibly long lived, and all the materials can be recycled. Each solar panel contains at least 3/4oz of silver.

 

[5030]

Still don't want to look out the window and have to look at solar panels disrupting my landscape. My comment is 80% of what? If the sun don't shine, they produce no power. Same with wind turbines, no wind, no power. Kind of like people with plug in vehicles. Most of them have no inkling where tat power comes from. I liken it to the 'supermarket' mentality. Food comes from the grocery and miraculously appears there as by some fairy put it there.

I know where it comes from too well but most people don't have a clue. They say ignorance is bliss until it bites you in the butt that is.

 

[fatjay]

Still don't want to look out the window and have to look at solar panels disrupting my landscape. My comment is 80% of what? If the sun don't shine, they produce no power. Same with wind turbines, no wind, no power. Kind of like people with plug in vehicles. Most of them have no inkling where tat power comes from. I liken it to the 'supermarket' mentality. Food comes from the grocery and miraculously appears there as by some fairy put it there.

I know where it comes from too well but most people don't have a clue. They say ignorance is bliss until it bites you in the butt that is.

Flick on your lights and magically they come on. Your electricity comes from a place as well. A place that isn't necessarily reliable, and is very vulnerable.

And they don't have to ruin your landscape. You put them on your roof, not in the middle of a field. And when the sun goes out, you have batteries. The idea is you produce more than you need at any given moment, then store it for later. Just like you grow more food than you currently need, then store it for later.

 

[shooterdon]

5030, all good points. I look at things differently...not right maybe...but differently.

Surviving can come down to being just bit better off than the other guy. It is like that story about how to survive a bear attack. Shoot your buddy in the knee and run like hell. Hopefully the bear takes the easy meal screaming in agony.

I am not a full-blown prepper. Food for about a year. I heat with wood and there is plenty of that around me. I am on a well and a 1/2 mile from a good creek (have good filters) so set on water. With two 500 gal propane tanks I can power the house for a couple of months by cycling the whole house generator. Solar might let me last a lot longer without a lot of effort if fuel gets very expensive or near impossible to get.

An EV of some type would provide wheels without needing fuel. Wheels are good for giving/getting help, trips to others to visit/barter stuff and going to the creek to get water if the well fails etc. Even a golf cart beats walking and pushing a wheelbarrow. A used golf cart is about $5k. A "beater" EV with a decent battery (like Gale's Leaf) would be better.

In my situation, and to address my perceived needs, a $15k solar system is easy to justify. I can live without power but I do not want to if I do not need to. With power, life is easier, safer and likely longer.

The issue you raised about civil strife is a lesser concern. I am part of "tribe" of about 50-60 locals. I have been dubbed "the ammunition factory". Shooterdon, is a well-earned moniker. 10's of thousands of rounds shot in competition, multiple reloading presses (some commercial grade), a Master Caster and two other melters, multiple molds, Star luber/sizer, 4000+ lbs of shot and casting alloy, and a comfortable supply of primers/powder. The tribe is well known in the area with members in law enforcement and some ex-military. None of the other locals would be foolish enough mess with it. We are rather remote and strangers are not welcomed at the best of times. During a time of unrest...well...

My "weak link" is power.

 

[drumminj]

Even a golf cart beats walking and pushing a wheelbarrow. A used golf cart is about $5k. A "beater" EV with a decent battery (like Gale's Leaf) would be better.

Focusing on a narrow and off-topic part of your post, but a horse or mule may be a better solution for some of these tasks if it comes to it.

 

[dmccarty]

This website estimates how much KWh a solar system will get at a given location and takes into account the month and weather.

PVWattsg

If one is going to cycle the batteries daily, one really should look at good quality LiFePo4 batteries. Most of the drop in LieFePo4 batteries cannot handle heavy power draws. Decent LifePo4 batteries should get 2,500+ cycles to 80% capacity. Most lead acid batteries used to 50% capacity will have a lifetime under a 1,00 cycles. Lead acid suffers from partial state of charge(PSoC) which kills batteries. LiFePo4 does not have this concern. There are lead acid battery brands, Rolls is one, that should get longer cycle times but they will be heavier, take up more space than LiFePo4 and still have issues with PSoC. Price fluctuates o one has to look at the market and see which is better money wise.

Victron makes/sells well regarded inverters, chargers, MPPTs, batteries, etc.

 

[HawkinsHollow]

Excellent Post, subscribed!

 

[MattB4]

Panels, AIO with LiFePO4 batteries and done. You will have a backup supply that likely is good for 10 years or more. It will be quiet, have no gas exhaust, no worries about resupply, and with prices being at their lowest recently, not a bad bargain. Yes, lights on when no one else has them does attract Zombies and Mother in laws to show up. Use curtains.

Fossil fuel generators are great but you need them running 24/7 if you do not have battery/inverter backup. If you do have battery/inverter adding PV is not a big deal. Also fossil fuel is not cheap. Better to run those generators for only few hours and charge up the batteries.

 

[bdhsfz6]

You put them on your roof, not in the middle of a field.

I was about to put in a roof mount solar array until I found out it would void the warranty on my newly installed 40 year shingles.

I see a lot of roof mount systems around here. I wonder if these homeowners don't know or don't care.

 

[HawkinsHollow]

LiFePO4 batteries are getting MUCH cheaper. Definetely the way to go now-a-days.

I have 400 watts of panels, 200aH of batteries, a solar charge controller and an inverter/charger for my container I have not used a lot. I am about to lend it all to a buddy that is living off grid right now. I look forward to digging it out and going through it again. It was not hard to set up a small 12v system for lights, charging devices, fans and even refrigeration (the 12v coolers are cheap and good).

 

[Midniteoyl]

I was about to put in a roof mount solar array until I found out it would void the warranty on my newly installed 40 year shingles.

I see a lot of roof mount systems around here. I wonder if these homeowners don't know or don't care.

Who said that? The shingle manufacturer who doesn't honor the 25-50 yrs warranties anyways, or the installer who will maybe only honor workmanship for 1 yr, and that's a hard maybe?

No, installing panels on your roof doesn't 'void the warranty'. It's just that each part is covered separately now. The install by the installer, the shingles by the manufacturer (good luck), and the solar rack (and penetrations through the roof caused by mounting it) by the solar installer.

Also, having the panels covering your roof means the shingles beneath are protected from UV and heat and thus should last even longer than they normally would. In fact, the perfect time to install the panels is considered to be when you get a new roof.

 

[Carl_NH]

This is the roofing co not wanting to guarantee aganst leaks which is understandable if the rack mounts are not installed correctly.

However the total cost of the re-roofing and solar installation is allowable for the 30% tax credit - so if you spend 20K installing a new roof and 20K for solar you get a $12K tax credit.

 

[Williy]

I will never spent $1,300+ for one battery, I use
deep cycle batteries L6 345 amp lasted over 15
years. Trogan battery. Soon will get 6 or 8 of the
12 volt batteries for 24 volt system
Also the $1,300+ batteries only have 100 amp so
you need 20 or 30 of them for a system

willy

 

[bdhsfz6]

Who said that? The shingle manufacturer who doesn't honor the 25-50 yrs warranties anyways, or the installer who will maybe only honor workmanship for 1 yr, and that's a hard maybe?

No, installing panels on your roof doesn't 'void the warranty'. It's just that each part is covered separately now. The install by the installer, the shingles by the manufacturer (good luck), and the solar rack (and penetrations through the roof caused by mounting it) by the solar installer.

Also, having the panels covering your roof means the shingles beneath are protected from UV and heat and thus should last even longer than they normally would. In fact, the perfect time to install the panels is considered to be when you get a new roof.

What you say may well be true and I can't speak for others, but in my case, the roof was installed through, and warrantied by, Home Depot. The fine print specifically excludes roof mounted installations, including, but not limited to, solar arrays.

This didn't stop me from pursuing solar energy systems though. I have enough land to use ground mounted panels without spoiling any view. It's a slow process around here though, since most solar system companies in the area have moved on with the reduction in tax incentives.

 

[MattB4]

I will never spent $1,300+ for one battery, I use
deep cycle batteries L6 345 amp lasted over 15
years. Trogan battery. Soon will get 6 or 8 of the
12 volt batteries for 24 volt system
Also the $1,300+ batteries only have 100 amp so
you need 20 or 30 of them for a system

willy

100ah at 48vDC is 8 times the capacity of a 100ah 6vDC battery. So no you do not need 20 or 30 of them. Lead acid is a relic of the past when it comes to a modern PV setup. So long as you can protect LiFePO4 from cold they are so much superior to FLA it is not even close.

The price of many PV things is at an all time low.

 

[ultrarunner]

Several solar firms are also roofing companies and not unusual to combine both so new roof with new solar.

I've seen a few rooftop installs where logical panel placement interrupted by one or two roof vent penetrations.

I’m thinking why not just move the kitchen sink DWV pipe but none of the companies installing solar I have spoken with do.

My roof is clay tile mostly for max fire safety so I went with a 6kW ground mount of three arrays of twelve 160W panels and no longer have out of pocket electricity costs billed from the utility.

 

[D'oh]

I will never spent $1,300+ for one battery, I use
deep cycle batteries L6 345 amp lasted over 15
years. Trogan battery. Soon will get 6 or 8 of the
12 volt batteries for 24 volt system
Also the $1,300+ batteries only have 100 amp so
you need 20 or 30 of them for a system

willy

I am with you. I have a Small System at the Cabin, basically for 12/24v Solar Fridge, and Tunes. The Fridge is the key part of Tiny vs Mid Size System. But Propane Fridges are not only pricey but dangerous and well more efficient than the Old, not nearly as dependable.

6, 230aH 6V Golf Cart Batteries, 550w Array is all that I need. Topped Off 2-3 hours at night by a 1500w Generator when we are there listening to tunes during the day, and watching Movies at night on the Gen.

I have 5 years on the 690 aH@12V Golf Cart Batteries, and $1000 Invested in the 6 of them. LiPo are Nice, but way over priced for what you get in return.

 

[ponytug]

Several solar firms are also roofing companies and not unusual to combine both so new roof with new solar.

I've seen a few rooftop installs where logical panel placement interrupted by one or two roof vent penetrations.

I’m thinking why not just move the kitchen sink DWV pipe but none of the companies installing solar I have spoken with do.

My roof is clay tile mostly for max fire safety so I went with a 6kW ground mount of three arrays of twelve 160W panels and no longer have out of pocket electricity costs billed from the utility.

FWIW: While it wasn't the case previously, there are now low profile vents that are permitted under solar panels.

All the best,

Peter

 

[bdhsfz6]

A question for those with roof mount panels in northern climates: How do you keep the panels clear of snow?

A neighbor mounted his on the ground for that reason. He uses a rubber "squeegee" on a long aluminum pole for light snowfalls but just gives up when we get a foot or more.

Some winters, his panels stay snow covered for a month or more.