bad GFCI breaker?

[RobertN]

Went out this morning, and power to our spa was off. Checked the breaker, and reset it. Spa still did not come on. It is a GFCI breaker, 40A 220v. With the breaker set to "on", I tried the "test" button. It did not trip the breaker.

I pulled the diconnect next to the spa, to take the spa out of the cicuit. Still no power(measured voltage with DVM) at the disconnect. I tried measuring right at the breaker panel, and found no voltage. I tried shutting down electricity, and disconnected the wires going from the breaker to the spa. Turned power on, but still no voltage on the output of the breaker... Reset the breaker again just for luck, but to no avail.

I shut down electricity again, and removed the breaker from the panel. With the breaker in the "on" position, I can ohm out across the input and output for each leg. Both measure 0-ohms(closed circuit). If I measure across the two input or output legs, I get 5.5M-ohms(an open, which I would expect. Don't want the two legs of the breaker shorted together...).

There is a white wire that comes out of the breaker, and gets connected to the nuetral junction in the breaker panel. If I ohm from it to either pole of the breaker, I get 5.5M-ohms.

This is a dedicated 220v circuit just for the spa.

Is there anything else I can check? The breaker does not work when powered up, but ohms out fine when out of the circuit. I am not sure how to debug it with the GFCI portion in the equation...

Do breakers just go bad? This breaker is about 5 years old, and as a GFCI, was pretty spendy(I think it was about $125).

 

[Junkman]

If the breaker senses a variant in the current draw on either leg, it will trip as it is intended to. I have found that breakers do go bad. Depending on the brand of breaker, you can many times find new ones on eBay. I would check all the connections for the electrical pumps, etc. and make sure that they are all clean and tight. Then try the breaker again. Usually a breaker that is going bad will trip a few times before it finally dies, is my experience. What brand is the breaker???? Junk...

 

[RobertN]

I can not read the label; it appears part of it is torn away. I don't remember if it was that way when new... I got it at Home Depot when I wired the spa up originally. I can make out it is a "type HGAF, 5mA sensitivity.

It has tripped a few times over the 5 years.

The connections inside the spa access are all as you mention, clean and tight.

 

[_RaT_]

With the breaker out of the panel, if it is not showing close to zero ohms across the same legs from line to load when in the on position, I would suggest that perhaps your breaker, not the GFI portion is bad. Are you sure you are resetting it? Push as extreme as you can to the off position. Work iit a few times.

If your breaker was tripping every now and then because of the GFI, then I would say you may have a neutral to ground issue after the GFI, either in the spa equipment or the wires leading to the spa from the GFI. This does not appear to be your case. The other possibility of course would simply be a GFI that is malfunctioning for whatever reason.

Are you indeed getting power to the GFI, it won't "test" without power?

You say you have a disconnect next to the spa, I assume then that the GFI must be located back at the main panel or even a sub panel away from the spa. I would prefer to have my GFI(s) (my spa uses two, 240V GFI's) at the spa area. I don't recall my Square D's being that costly, I know the sub panel was relatively inexpensive. I have had mine now for 10 years and even moved the breakers with me when I moved. NOt had an issue yet and I do test them regularly, one of the few GFI's I do test with consistency.

 

[JDgreen227]

"I don't recall my Square D's being that costly".

Well, our 12 year old Hot Springs spa was moved to a new location last fall and I decided to buy a new outdoor sub panel, a 100 amp rainproof Square D set me back about $35. I need to replace the two double pole GFCI breakers that power the spa...it originally had a double pole 30 amp and a double pole 20 amp. While at Menard's earlier this week I checked to see if they had them in stock, all they had was a 50 amp double pole which was priced at $125 plus tax.
They also sell a kit which has the breaker plus a rainproof main lug load center for $118 plus tax. I contacted Hot Springs and they told me I had to use two breakers instead of one...just my luck. I am going to Home Depot today to see if they have the ones I need.

 

[billbill1]

Robert, are you getting voltage anywhere in the circuit? The problem could be the wiring to the panel or the breaker that feeds the spa circiut. Maybe a loose connection at the source or a fuse/breaker feeding the spa.

 

[_RaT_]

Why can't you reuse the two GFI breakers you have?

 

[hhw]

I'd put my money on the breaker going bad. However, one or two suggested basic evaluations. 1. Any other GFCI' in the panel if so are they acting up? If so, potential neutral/ground problems. It's clear the positive is hot. 2. Old style test-smell breaker - smell hot/burnt? 3. GFCI outlets in the house function OK. Problem narrowed to individual circuit. I'm still thiinking bad breaker though.

 

[RobertN]

With the breaker out of the panel, and in the "on" position, I get 0-ohms across each leg.

I went in to the panel, and disconnected everything from this breaker except the dedicated nuetral line which is the GFI part of the breaker. I set the breaker to "on", but had no voltage on the output side of the breaker. Nor would the "test" button work. My assumption is this would isolate the breaker from the rest of the circuit, in case there was an issue out by the spa or the wires in between.

I did not measure the voltage on the rails in the breaker panel when the breaker was removed. When the breaker was in the panel, I did check voltage at the output of the breaker next to it; that breaker had output voltage...

Yes, the breaker with GFCI is at the main panel. There is a disconnect out by the spa.

 

[RobertN]

1. Everything else in the panel functions fine
2. Breaker looks, feels, and smells fine(it's sitting here on the desk next to the multimeter
3. all the other gfci functions in the house are fine.

I think it is the breaker too, but just checking all possibilities.

 

[_RaT_]

Pull the neutral off the breaker (or from the breaker to the neutral bus) and see if you get 240V across the breaker. The neutral removed should keep the GFI portion of the breaker from tripping. If you find you get power on the load side of the breaker doing this, the GFI portion of the breaker is bad. Obviously you are familiar enough with electricity to be doing this or we would not even be having this discussion. All the years I have been doing electrical work, the stuff still scares the daylights out of me. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[RobertN]

Tested as you mention; got 4v on the output legs. I found it odd to find that... It is like there is a resistive leakage happening.

Kensco has to order the breaker, so looks like I will run down to Home Depot this afternoon; they stocked them before.

I spent most of my electronics time working low voltage stuff. I did do installation and upgrade/maint work on the equipment I tested on too. It still had mainly 110/220, and then the low voltage portions internally.

Yes, I too respect electricity. It can do a job on you, real fast. Over the period of two days now debugging this, the main breaker has been shut down, reset, shutdown, reset... Computers shutdown, rebooted, clocks reset, reset again /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[RobertN]

Replaced the breaker today. New one works fine. Dunno what ailed the old one?

 

[johnday]

Robert; I've replaced a number of breakers and GFI's in my house and others.. They are mostly Siemens that I've replaced. Don't know why either. I've also replaced a few of the receptacle type GFI's that were installed on the outside of the buildings. Don't know why there either. Do you think they may be like us and just get old and quit? /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif