Backhoe- Build or Buy?

[dfkrug]

The sooner I get all the equipment needed to make any thing the happier I will be. no sending out to a machine shop only to have them make the mistakes for me.

That is the key really.

One shop I paid to cut some large holes for my CADDigger cut one in the wrong place. Each hole was clearly marked on each piece. It was
aggravation at every turn. Now I cut my own.

I have a lot of tools now, but I refuse to dedicate floor space to a milling
machine. And a 3-phase converter. I do have a couple of pals with
large Bridgeports, but I try to work around the need for milling machine
work. Lately the only service I have been going outside for is CNC steel
cutting.

 

[2manyrocks]

I guess one has to consider all the costs and use of time. Once you start buying a bandsaw, drill press, welder, etc., it runs up the cost. Unless you are going to use the equipment for other projects, it can get expensive.

There are some guys who can knock out a project before I've even cut my materials to length. Even a simple project seems to take a lot of my time. I can't remember where I read it, but it seems like one of the keys to building a backhoe is to get everything aligned correctly so it doesn't bind or twist in operation. Building a backhoe is probably not a project that I should attempt, but certainly other people have that skill if they want to invest their time and money doing it.

 

[john_bud]

You forgot 1 VERY important part my friend finding a reputable place to repair it for you... The sooner I get all the equipment needed to make any thing the happier I will be. no sending out to a machine shop only to have them make the mistakes for me. no disrespect intended towards your "fun" during your rebuild.

Oh, I can't argue or even dis-agree with you on that one! In fact I went to several shops and the one I used was highly regarded. So much for references, they are only good as long as the people they refer to are still there.

I would like to have the equipment and skills to do my own machining. That's probably not in the cards, unless anyone wants to send me the winning lottery ticket. (If so, just PM me and I'll let you know the address! !)

jb

 

[joes_427_vette]

The 50 hour theory is just that. I had over 50 hours designing, planning, fabricating, refabricating, redesigning, welding, grinding, priming and testing. This was just what it took to get an acceptable mount for a Bradco 611 to a New Holland TC 55DA. Don't get me wrong.... it was fun and exciting watching it progress, changing ideas, and finally closing on a design that is adequate for the task.
Bradco doesn't make a subframe mount for my combination. That is what sent me down this trail and of course at todays shop rate I couldn't justify sending it out.
Some of this work is not impossible.... just takes time and a small amount of ambition.
I'm studing loaders presently and want to fabricate one for my JD 4110.

 

[wmgeorge]

Well I went down to my local re-cycled metal place and I can do the metal part of the Caddigger for less than $400, my major expense now will be the hydraulics. I may be shopping the "yard" for those also. I figure I can get by for now on just using the standard, adjust by hand stabilizers. BG in Iowa

 

[Mith]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I really think you would be wise to shell out for hydraulic stabilizers and use a subframe mount. Apart from the risk of breaking your tractor you will also have a hard time getting downpressure as the 3ph will tend to lift when you push down with the hoe.


Once the design is sorted I think the actual construction of a backhoe is easier than that for a loader, atleast, I thought it was. The loader had to be square between the 2 arms, and both sides had to be exactly the same. With the backhoe, as long as it was square it wasnt an issue to get it to fit up. Design for the backhoe was much harder.
No including sourcing materials and design I'd reckon 50 hours is reasonable to build.

I built the following loader and backhoe combination last year.

 

[dfkrug]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I really think you would be wise to shell out for hydraulic stabilizers and use a subframe mount. Apart from the risk of breaking your tractor you will also have a hard time getting downpressure as the 3ph will tend to lift when you push down with the hoe.

Although I am against using the 3-pt on compact tractors to support a
backhoe, if one insists on doing it, then an additional brace should always
be used to keep the 3PH from lifting. Severe injury can result when an
unbraced hoe suddenly rises and pinches the operator. All of the
commercially available hoes that I have seen that come with 3-pt mounts
provide such a brace. Often a strengthened toplink is included, too.

 

[Mith]

if one insists on doing it, then an additional brace should always
be used to keep the 3PH from lifting.

Yes, I agree. But adding this brace would mean that you would not be able to use fixed stabiliers. If I read right, the OP is planning to use his 3pt lift to lift the BH up off the stabilisers to move?

 

[wmgeorge]

Yes, I agree. But adding this brace would mean that you would not be able to use fixed stabiliers. If I read right, the OP is planning to use his 3pt lift to lift the BH up off the stabilisers to move?

It just so happens when the BH is in operation, the 3 Point hitch can not raise. In fact someone would have to move the lever up anyway, and since I'm the only one on the machine... I don't think that would happen.

3 Point... Did I tell you my tractor has cast iron transmission and clutch housing? This tractor weighs 1600 lbs, plus the loader on front with its sub-frame adds another 600 lbs. The odds of this 16 Hp tractor having enough power to snap the cast iron tractor, steel frame and steel loader frame in half would be hard to imagine.

Now If I had a newer tractor with say 50 - 75 HP and a die cast aluminum hydrostatic transaxle, and a U formed sheet metal frame I'd be concerned. BG in Iowa

BTW nice job on the build!! Your tractor is about the same size as my John Deere 318 I sold, my current one now is a John Deere 650.

 

[Mith]

BG, you can lift the lower arms of a 3ph without moving the lever on all the tractors I have had experience with, the links are able to move allowing you to lift the lower arms. Yours must be an different design, my mistake, I'd be interested to see a picture, apart from the brace with effectively locks the 3ph that dfkrug mentions I dont know of any other way of preventing it lifting.

The problem is not so much breaking the tractor in half (but thats still a consideration, but your loader frame will probably prevent that), but ripping the toplink bracket out the housing. Most of the digging force (several thousand lbs even with 16HP) will be concentrated on it.
I can tell I'm got going to convince you though

Thanks. The tractor is only 12HP. Weighs 2000lbs or there abouts. 6'2 loader lift, 6' backhoe dig depth.

 

[wmgeorge]

BG, you can lift the lower arms of a 3ph without moving the lever on all the tractors I have had experience with, the links are able to move allowing you to lift the lower arms. Yours must be an different design, my mistake, I'd be interested to see a picture, apart from the brace with effectively locks the 3ph that dfkrug mentions I dont know of any other way of preventing it lifting.

The problem is not so much breaking the tractor in half (but thats still a consideration, but your loader frame will probably prevent that), but ripping the toplink bracket out the housing. Most of the digging force (several thousand lbs even with 16HP) will be concentrated on it.
I can tell I'm got going to convince you though

Thanks. The tractor is only 12HP. Weighs 2000lbs or there abouts. 6'2 loader lift, 6' backhoe dig depth.

Correct there is no downward pressure, only the 600 lbs or so that the BH will weigh. But the hydraulic circuit on the tractor is open center, series control valves. The 3 Point is last in the circuit, so when the BH valves are being operated there is little or no pressure back to the 3 Pt control valve, which still must be activated. Granted IF I was setting on the BH seat and reached over to raise it up, that could be a problem. Ouch!!

The Caddigger design uses a shoe or gripper on the stabilizer arm made from 4 x 6 steel angle that is forced into the ground at a angle to the bucket digging back toward the tractor.

The top link is held to the rear axle & 3 point area by 4 Grade 5 by 1/2" bolts... Tension capacity = 18,139 lbs each, the Shear capacity = 14,730 lbs each, and the top link support is 3/8 welded steel. Yes, these could fail, but not with the HP this tractor is generating.

IF I was using this everyday, or depended on it to make my living, I would have a dedicated tractor or machine.

My big job now for the moment is wondering what to do with the 300 lbs of steel I have setting outside .
I have a steel beam inside, overhead with trolley and chain hoist in my shop. Good thing I have a couple months before I actually need to use the backhoe.

Is your backhoe your own design, I'm impressed with the capacity!!

 

[shvl73]

I may be mistaken but, I thought the danger was from using downpressure on the hoe causing the whole unit to rise, crushing the operator against the rops. My unit had the additional braces that triangulated the hitch. I have since adapted it to be subframe mounted. Maybe dfkrug or someone else can tell us the specifics of the additional bracing.

 

[wmgeorge]

I may be mistaken but, I thought the danger was from using downpressure on the hoe causing the whole unit to rise, crushing the operator against the rops. My unit had the additional braces that triangulated the hitch. I have since adapted it to be subframe mounted. Maybe dfkrug or someone else can tell us the specifics of the additional bracing.

Sure, I can see that if you are using the bucket to backfill and tamping the ditch. But regular digging would tend to pull it downward and back against the stabilizers. Since I have a loader on my tractor, that will be my backfill pusher.
I could use a short chain and hook to attach to my drawbar pretty easily if I was backfilling with the bucket.
I may just consider leaving the quick hitch on the 3 point and attach to that, I'm going to guess that this would put too much pressure on the quick hitch.

 

[wmgeorge]

I just spent some time on Google searching, and I'd like someone to point me to where the 3 Point hitch mounted backhoe accidents are reported? People getting crushed when the 3 point backhoe rises and crushes people. I did not find anything on the OHSA site, except for the ongoing trench and people getting hit with bucket accidents.

With various searches failing to find these accidents, which I can see happening, just wondering where they are documented and how common are they???

 

[dfkrug]

WMGEORGE, I am sure that crushing accidents involving unbraced 3-pt
mounted hoes are extremely rare. I first heard about it happening on
TBN or TractorPoint years ago. Searches thru the archives will be hard
to filter to track down those early references.

You are correct that fixed outriggers will be hard to use without being
able to lift and lower the hoe with the 3-pt. If you do not go with hyd
outriggers, you will prob want to use the 3-pt unbraced as you planned.

SHVL73, I looked thru some of my pix files and did not find any good ones
to post that show the braced 3-pt. If another poster does not rise to
the occasion, then go look at one of the Woods PDF installation manuals
on their website....they have a drawing. I think 3RRL posted a drawing in
06, which showed his 3-pt brace. He has since tossed it in favor of a
subframe.

I also wished I had saved some of the pix I have seen of failed toplinks.
My most vivid recollection is of the TL bracket pulling a chunk out of the
casting it was bolted into, on an L Kubota.

 

[wmgeorge]

WMGEORGE,
I also wished I had saved some of the pix I have seen of failed toplinks.
My most vivid recollection is of the TL bracket pulling a chunk out of the
casting it was bolted into, on an L Kubota.

I think the "L" series is 30 HP plus, this tractor has 16HP and is cast iron construction. I'm wondering if the Kubota uses aluminum or cast iron like my John Deere? The rated ripping power of the 608 Caddigger is 2,600 lbs at 1,900 PSI Hydraulic pressure. I'm sure you've read my other posts... this tractor can not generate enough power given the size of the hydraulic cylinders and available HP to pull one 1/2" grade 5 bolt apart. IF the casting was defective, at all 4 locations, perhaps, if the HP was doubled to 32 perhaps. I'd trust the John Deere engineering department on this one.

 

[dfkrug]

I think the "L" series is 30 HP plus, this tractor has 16HP and is cast iron construction. I'm wondering if the Kubota uses aluminum or cast iron like my John Deere? The rated ripping power of the 608 Caddigger is less than 5,000 lbs. I'm sure you've read my other posts... this tractor can not generate enough power given the size of the cylinders and available HP to pull one 1/2" grade 5 bolt apart. IF the casting was defective, at all 4 locations, perhaps, if the HP was doubled to 32 perhaps. I'd trust the John Deere engineering department on this one.

Most of these CUTs have a cast steel 3-pt cylinder housing that the
toplink bracket is bolted to. The axle housings are also cast steel, but the
PTO/differential housing is often cast Al. Usually the smaller the tractor,
the lighter duty the housings. There is not necessarily the same
relationship betw hp and strength or weight. My JD955 had 33hp but only
weighed about 2000lb naked. The 3PH and rear housings were pretty
light duty. I have also had two 20hp 2000 lb tractors with heavier duty
castings (Kubota B21 and Kioti CK20).

That said, the forces you place on the rear of your tractor will be a
function of the hyd press, cyl sizes and leverage. If you can deliver
4-5 GPM at 1500 psi to your hoe, that will take maybe 10-12hp. Increasing
the hp of the engine does not increase these forces. CADPlans advises
using no more than 1500psi on their CADDiggers. Even at that pressure,
I broke several things on my 728.

As for the JD engineering dept, they say do not put 3-pt hoes on their CUTs.
I am not saying you have to follow their recommendations...just be aware
them and why.

 

[wmgeorge]

As for the JD engineering dept, they say do not put 3-pt hoes on their CUTs.
I am not saying you have to follow their recommendations...just be aware
them and why.

Thank you for your reply and concern, my reference was to John Deere engineers in general, I have a friend who is a retired JD engineer here in Iowa. When I get time I'll ask him what the failure rate is on 3 point top links. I did edit my posting, the ripping force of the 608 bucket is 2,600 lbs at the rated PSI of hydraulic pressure.

As a Caddigger owner you know how they work, the digging pressure is suppose to push down and back against the stabilizers.

How did this work in the real world?

Did you later on make yours hydraulic?? I may make sure I leave room on the valve mount for another spool!!

 

[MJPetersen]

I may make sure I leave room on the valve mount for another spool!!

leave room for 2 spools. One for each side.

Mike

 

[wmgeorge]

leave room for 2 spools. One for each side.

Mike

Mike, Thats kind of a duh thing, but I didn't think of it!!
Thanks.