Backhoe- Build or Buy?

[dfkrug]

Thank you for your reply and concern, my reference was to John Deere engineers in general, I have a friend who is a retired JD engineer here in Iowa. When I get time I'll ask him what the failure rate is on 3 point top links. I did edit my posting, the ripping force of the 608 bucket is 2,600 lbs at the rated PSI of hydraulic pressure.

As a Caddigger owner you know how they work, the digging pressure is suppose to push down and back against the stabilizers.

How did this work in the real world?

Did you later on make yours hydraulic?? I may make sure I leave room on the valve mount for another spool!!

RE JD, if you get the chance, go to Waterloo, IA and get a JD plant tour.
They make AG tractors there, I am told. I recently got a tour of the combine
factory in E. Moline, IL and it was interesting. They pulled us around the
factory in a train pulled by an X700 mower.

Anyway, my CADDigger 728 weighed only about 900-1000 pounds. Digging
is accomplished only by pinching the dipper stick crowd action against the
machine, secured by the planted outriggers. The unit can not really dig
down, as that would just lift the outriggers out of the dirt. This means that
it is hard to start a hole, but once you get a start, you pull the bkt teeth
against the back of the hole. You need enough counter weight to support
the weight of a full bkt of dirt fully extended. My 2nd engine was so light,
that I needed to buy lead ingots and bolt them on. It was a Tecumseh
10hp. My first motor was a Yamaha 750 4-cyl MC engine....smooth, quiet,
and powerful, but not designed for stationary use. Great ballast, though....
If you attach a homebuilt hoe to a tractor, these issues go away.

I never went to hyd outriggers as I decided to go with a tractor and hoe
attachment instead.

Sharp teeth on the bkt are very important. Those dull cast steel teeth
out there are not so good. I plan to change teeth on my current hoe.

 

[wmgeorge]

Frankly this is going to be a light duty machine. Planning on an 8 inch bucket, maybe in the future I'll build a 12 inch for it. Primary use is digging sewer lines at the most 3 or 4 ft deep and electric power trench at 18 inches. Maybe digging out a stump or two, thats why I'm really not concerned about tearing my tractor in half. I would rent, but this place is a 2.5 hour tandem trailer pull one way.

The local folks are good old boys, but really not motivated to get things done. You'd think at the end of January with snow on the ground they'd have time to get a price together for me for stubbing out the water and sewer lines from the main. I've been waiting a week.

The plans call for using a plow share (cutting with my plasma cutter) for the teeth or cutting edges, I'm not looking that far ahead yet. Thanks for the help.

 

[dfkrug]

Pulling on stumps with a b/h can be the hardest strain on your tractor.
You exert max force, which often gets suddenly released when a root
breaks.

Anyway, my self-propelled CADDigger was a very useful tool. I did several
trenches, and I was able to get it into places I could not even go with a
tractor.

If you have a plasma cutter, don't buy any of the pre-cut steel...cut
your own and save a ton of $.

 

[wmgeorge]

Pulling on stumps with a b/h can be the hardest strain on your tractor.
You exert max force, which often gets suddenly released when a root
breaks.

Anyway, my self-propelled CADDigger was a very useful tool. I did several
trenches, and I was able to get it into places I could not even go with a
tractor.

If you have a plasma cutter, don't buy any of the pre-cut steel...cut
your own and save a ton of $.

And with my recycled metal dealer 1 block away, (this was a farm town) I think cutting the parts myself, I'll have about $350 in the metal fab part and no $300 shipping charge. The hydraulics are another story....

 

[wmgeorge]

Well I did get the 608 done and it works great!! Worked so well that my son "borrowed" for 3 weeks to dig in his drain field, tile and culvert across his driveway. Oh forgot about digging a 10 foot long, 4 foot deep retaining wall.

Nothing happened to the tractor, the top link did not break, the tractor did not pull apart and he did not die from his head hitting the roll bar! In fact the drivers head can not hit the roll bar even at the highest point the 3 point can raise.

I posted all the details over on the Machine Builders Network so I could put up pictures.
Link > Machine Builders Network

BTW My final cost on the project was about $1,600.

Now my next final touch is to put on a thumb, hoping to be able to move RR ties around for a small landscaping project. Planning on the one from Metkit with the Caddigger, unless some has a better one they would suggest?

 

[EddieWalker]

Congrats. It sounds like you did a heck of a job and for a great price!!!!!

Thanks for the update,
Eddie

 

[wmgeorge]

Well I did get the 608 done and it works great!! Worked so well that my son "borrowed" for 3 weeks to dig in his drain field, tile and culvert across his driveway. Oh forgot about digging a 10 foot long, 4 foot deep retaining wall.

Nothing happened to the tractor, the top link did not break, the tractor did not pull apart and he did not die from his head hitting the roll bar! In fact the drivers head can not hit the roll bar even at the highest point the 3 point can raise.

I posted all the details over on the Machine Builders Network so I could put up pictures.
Link > Machine Builders Network

BTW My final cost on the project was about $1,600.

Now my next final touch is to put on a thumb, hoping to be able to move RR ties around for a small landscaping project. Planning on the one from Metkit with the Caddigger, unless some has a better one they would suggest?

I forgot to add: For my small 16 - 18 HP tractor the 3 point hitch attachment worked slick. All the dire predictions about stress on the tractor... perhaps If I had a larger tractor like most of you have here I'd think about a frame attachment. But this tractor does not generate enough HP to be an issue. IF I was to use it everyday in a commercial environment different story. But no problems.

 

[hbaird]

I bought a set of 608 plans last fall. The first week in June I bought a Italian made backhoe instead of building the 608. I am glad to hear it is going well for you. I don't think you will tear anything, tractor or backhoe.
hbaird

 

[dfkrug]

I posted all the details over on the Machine Builders Network so I could put up pictures.
Link > Machine Builders Network

BTW My final cost on the project was about $1,600.

Now my next final touch is to put on a thumb, hoping to be able to move RR ties around for a small landscaping project. Planning on the one from Metkit with the Caddigger, unless some has a better one they would suggest?

Looks good, Bill!

I went to MBN to view your thread. Is the "Super Boom" a Cadplans option
for a bent main boom? First I heard of it.

I found Mikulas' design for the swing cyl pivot to be woefully weak and I
had to buttress it after breaking the welds there. As for his thumb plans,
I emailed about that a couple of years ago before doing my own design and
I could never get a picture from them.

RE your own thumb design: a bent or curved boom may allow you to build
a longer thumb as the clearance betw the dipper end and the boom at full
retraction is a limiting factor.

 

[Renze]

If you dont build a subframe for your backhoe, i would at least use a semi-4pt mount:
I mean, having 4 point mount on the backhoe frame, and using a triangle to connect the upper 2 points to the top link bracket of the tractor.
This will prevent a lot of rotation of the backhoe when digging besides the tractor. (it gets lateral support on the top link bracket, so it doesnt put as much torsion on the lower link arms)
It will also prevent that the shaft connecting both lift arms inside the 3pt hitch cover to shear off.

If you want it even nicer, you could add a single stabiliser cylinder under aforementioned toplink A-frame to push the tractor off the ground to place the backhoe even firmer on its feet. Then you dont need hydraulic outriggers but just some solid support feet, because you can pick it up with the 3pt lift when the stabiliser cylinder under the triangle toplink, is in float.

this would be the best quick&cheap substitute for a backhoe subframe.

 

[wmgeorge]

Looks good, Bill!

I went to MBN to view your thread. Is the "Super Boom" a Cadplans option
for a bent main boom? First I heard of it.

I found Mikulas' design for the swing cyl pivot to be woefully weak and I
had to buttress it after breaking the welds there. As for his thumb plans,
I emailed about that a couple of years ago before doing my own design and
I could never get a picture from them.

RE your own thumb design: a bent or curved boom may allow you to build
a longer thumb as the clearance betw the dipper end and the boom at full
retraction is a limiting factor.

No problems with welds breaking, even after heavy use , I agree his plans are just a starting point. I used unfinished. bronze bearings for all and used my metal lathe to pre-bore as needed. I then reamed slightly to fit.

On his Super Boom, he will not sell the plans for it, nor will he sell just the side plates so you can do your own as I already had the metal and rest purchased. He makes you buy from him the entire Super Boom kit, plates, tubing and all! Screw that, I just found some photos, got out my AutoCAD program and did some trial and design work, and had templates to cut out my own side plates. It is a 30 degree angle and you need to cut the square tubing longer to make up for that angle. BG

 

[wmgeorge]

If you dont build a subframe for your backhoe, i would at least use a semi-4pt mount:
I mean, having 4 point mount on the backhoe frame, and using a triangle to connect the upper 2 points to the top link bracket of the tractor.
This will prevent a lot of rotation of the backhoe when digging besides the tractor. (it gets lateral support on the top link bracket, so it doesnt put as much torsion on the lower link arms)
It will also prevent that the shaft connecting both lift arms inside the 3pt hitch cover to shear off.

If you want it even nicer, you could add a single stabiliser cylinder under aforementioned toplink A-frame to push the tractor off the ground to place the backhoe even firmer on its feet. Then you dont need hydraulic outriggers but just some solid support feet, because you can pick it up with the 3pt lift when the stabiliser cylinder under the triangle toplink, is in float.

this would be the best quick&cheap substitute for a backhoe subframe.

I have no intentions of building a sub frame, or adding hyd outriggers, it works fine as is. I've adjusted the 3 point spreader chains to limit the side to side movement. The outriggers function as they should. I did weld a ring eye behind the seat post, down about 1/2 way or so, to limit the lift, IF needed to prevent operator injury. It was to use with a chain under the tractor draw bar, but as you can see in the photos, the operator is far away from the roll bar. It could also be used to limit the side sway... IF needed, so far not needed.

I am in the process now of building a thumb, manual adjust one, nothing fancy.

 

[plowking]

If you are lucky,sometimes you can find deals. My friend told me today he is going to buy a Woods backhoe for his kubota, very little use and he can buy it for three grand.....I'm not good at finding deals. I actually had a trencherman 1 before I bought my first TLB. plowking

 

[Brad_Blazer]

Very nice work on the backhoe. Are those homemade joystick adapters?

 

[Renze]

WMgeorge, i was mostly just thinking out loud, how i would build if i ever find time to build a super duty backhoe... Maybe in your situation it will work fine just the way it is, but when I build a backhoe my own style it would be strong enough to lift the whole tractor off the ground. Then it would need some additional reinforcements and technical safety measures. I built the subframe for my frontloader by myself, and its heavier than any factory made subframe. I just want it thorough so i can use all its got without breaking something.

I would like to build a backhoe, that can compete in breakout force with the average 8 ton excavator (not in cycle times off course, but its only a hobby ) but i have too many other projects that take my time...

I have no experience with the size of equipment (backhoe and tractor) you are speaking off, but there must be other folks who can tell you from first hand, how well these tractors do with backhoes .

 

[wmgeorge]

Very nice work on the backhoe. Are those homemade joystick adapters?

Yes homemade joystick handles, there are plans on here>
Machine Builders Network and some photos. You will need to do a search. They are for a different valve, I used the Husco valve I found on sale. Details on MBN link in the other post. So I had to re-design, not perfect but it works. I plan on using the BH as is, but building a Thumb so I can move landscape timbers and RR ties. This was never intended to replace a full scale commercial grade back hoe.

 

[wmgeorge]

WMgeorge, i was mostly just thinking out loud, how i would build if i ever find time to build a super duty backhoe... Maybe in your situation it will work fine just the way it is, but when I build a backhoe my own style it would be strong enough to lift the whole tractor off the ground.

Renze, This little 3 point attachment does what I need it to do, never intend to compete with the big guys. This is a John Deere 650 tractor, diesel about 16 - 18 HP. I had to trace out and design / install my own power beyond circuit as the John Deere dealer here was no help.

 

[Renze]

never intend to compete with the big guys.

beyond that, is my goal when building machinery myself

I had to trace out and design / install my own power beyond circuit as the John Deere dealer here was no help.

I am not surprised, assumably the dealer never had to look into it because its an unusual question.... But that's exactly the challenge

 

[wmgeorge]

My thoughts on the Caddigger design for the 608 or perhaps in general for all Caddiggers. It would seem to me that the 2.5 inch cylinder for the boom is undersized. With my system valve set at 1850 psi I can't lift a 200 lb RR tie all the way to the highest point the boom should lift. Needs a bit more guts. If the cylinder was mounted underneath (pushing instead of pulling) like I see a lot of BH designs do, it would be fine.

Granted it seems to dig ok, but I'm considering going to a 3 inch cylinder which would give me about 49% more lift power, using the calculators on the Surplus Center website.

I think I can post a picture of my Thumb I made, and lifting the biggest RR tie they had at Menards!

 

[Renze]

If the cylinder was mounted underneath (pushing instead of pulling) like I see a lot of BH designs do, it would be fine.

Granted it seems to dig ok, but I'm considering going to a 3 inch cylinder which would give me about 49% more lift power, using the calculators on the Surplus Center website. [\quote]

If it gives 49% more pull, how much more push would it give ? would it bend the boom when trying to dig into hard soil ?
also, this will increase the required oil flow to lower the boom and decrease your cycle time.

If its possible to change the cylinder mount, that would be my first choice... just to be safe with the downforce, and to keep a quicker machine...