Any septic system pros out there?

[Claytonfarms]

I am having a new septic system installed, some of the things the installer is doing do not make sense to me so I have a couple of questions.

By the way our county would not let me install the system, I had to have a licensed installer do the work but I do not think he knows what he is doing.

First the inlet and outlet on the tank, the tank came with rubber boots and clamps for the pipes the boots were pushed into the tank when it was delivered. He did not use these. He left the boots on the inside and filled the outside with some type of cement, no clamps on the boots. After 3 days, the cement has cracked and is falling out.

Next the tank has 2 manhole covers. On the outlet end he did not put a riser on the manhole, he cut a hole in the manhole cover and put a 6" diameter extension pipe to above grade. The extension pipe is glued to the outlet tee so neither the pipe or the manhole cover can be removed but it is loose since the cement is falling out. By the way neither of the manhole covers are sealed to the tank. It is a 2 chamber tank with no other access to the outlet chamber except the 6" diameter pipe and the tank is 2' below grade. The inlet has no riser currently.

Last but not least we have clay soil where the tank is. We have had rain for 2 days since the tank was installed and partially backfilled.When I went there today there are streams of water coming thru the side walls 3 feet below grade and 1 foot below the tank, the water is filling the hole almost a foot deep. The backfill is so saturated I can push a 2x4 5' into the fill by hand. I did pump the water from around the tank into the tank so hopefully it will not float.

The county was there 3 days ago and said everything looked good and they passed the system.

So my questions are: Should I be concerned about the connections at the tank? Am I going to run into problems with the current outlet tee / manhole setup? Will the runoff water be a problem after the tank is completely backfilled and covered? I plan to live there for the next 10 - 15 years and I do not want any problems that could be fixed or prevented now.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Axe Man]

Check to see if the installer and inspector have the same last name. After having an addition put on our house and passed inspection, the roof started leaking. After trying to get the contractor out to fix the problem with no success we got another contractor out who said the wrong shingles were used ( it was a low pitched roof ). When I went to the township offices to speak with the inspector I was told he no longer works for the township.....He was now working for his brother.......the contractor who built our addition.

 

[Claytonfarms]

I do not think they are related. I was going to ask the county inspector about the issues I saw but since it passed I do not want to deal with the county. The whole thing was rushed because the state changed the septic code and a system put in a week from now would have cost me $14,000 more to install and a monthly maintenance fee.

It is sad that the county and the installer just wanted it done quick rather than done correctly. I could have waited 6 months to have the job completed but I did not want to pay the extra $ and the permit was going to expire.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Have you paid him all his fee yet? Do you have a written contract? Does your contract spell out workmanship and guarantee his products and installation. Those things make you case stronger if you arbitrate or litigate. Does your state require a contractor's licence? Usually the enforcement there is way better than county inspectors, he could be fined or lose his license.

You got royally screwed. I agree it is obvious the county is not going to support you in this. I would get another certified installer, pay him a consultant fee, and get a statement from him on the workmanship and quality of the installation. Uncover what you have to and take lots of pictures, try to get your new installer to get you pictures of a compliant installation.

Get a lawyer to write a letter (should not cost but $2-300) requesting corrections required and spell out the details and give him a time limit to take corrective action. If he balks, get an estimate from the new contractor to fix the system properly. File a claim in small claims court to collect the fee to fix plus ripple effects. If you build a good documented case he will no doubt lose and get a good lecture from the judge on business ethics.

Ron

 

[Egon]

Think long and hard about how you will proceed. You don't want to get involved with the new rules.

 

[Stick895]

OTOH, you really don't want a messed up septic system. If it's not working right and discharging sewerage, then the Peoples Republic of Maryland will probably fine you and make you spend the money to put in a new system.

 

[dave1949]

Maybe you could ask the septic tank supplier about the intended installation method, just to verify what seems to be how the tank was designed to be installed.

There is nothing to prevent you from correcting the installation yourself. Although irritating, that would be one way to get what you want with no hassles.

 

[lockhaven]

I agree with Dave, get some thin set cement and add the fiberglass filler that is used for ceramic tiles. As far as the inspector and the installer being related they probably are not, but that does not mean they are not long time buddies in fact you could bet on it. Baltimore County inspectors are the most corrupt bunch I have ever dealt with so I would suspect yours to be similar. Now that the inspection is done anything you do is OK as long as no one is after you, so do not make enemies with the installer or inspector.

 

[HeLa]

inspectors and installers, especially in rural areas, are often good friends. this is not ALWAYS a bad thing. for instance, if you need immediate service that would require a permit before work could start or a minor repair that would cost you more in permits than it's worth, a local installer might be willing to go bend the rules a bit to save you some time and money knowing that he won't get whacked by the inspector. don't ask me how i know.

definitely document everything with pictures and dates. log phone calls and inquiries to the installer with date/time and substance of the discussion.

citing your change in law, i would be careful poking at the beehive with a letter from an attorney. i do, however, agree with having another local installer come out and do a "peer review" consultation of your current installer's work. if you plan to move ahead with an action against the installer, have the consultant prepare this in writing. it'll likely be obvious to him, but make sure that he is aware of why you are asking him to do this. if you don't plan to move ahead with action against the first installer, you'll still likely want to know what is right/wrong with your current situation.

if possible i would try to resolve it with the installer first, or cut him loose and have someone else finish the work. NOTE: in some jurisdictions (like mine) the installer is tied to the permit. i.e. you have to name your installer on your permit (they're licensed with board of health and some other organizations here) and only that installer can do the work on that permit. so, in my jurisdiction, if i cut your installer loose i would have to acquire a new permit ... under the new laws. if all your inspections are complete, you *could* just make the necessary changes yourself. this might be easiest in the end. with all of the bureaucracy (especially with your change in law) surrounding these systems, it may be better to have fewer rather more people aware/involved.

i'm not a pro but i've done a good amount of research on the topic in the last year. i don't understand your outlet-side chamber riser situation. if i understand the install, how would you ever change/clean your effluent filter or pump that side of the tank? 6" is way too small for good pump access. i'm assuming that he does plan to put a riser on at least the inlet-chamber side? i would demand access, if not risers, on both chambers for pumping, effluent filter maintenance, inspection, baffle repair/replacement, etc… you don't want to be digging the tank up any more often than you have to.

all of the pipes in my tank are held in with hydraulic cement, but it's an OLD tank & system. all of the newer ones that i looked at use rubber/plastic mounting which sounds like the what came with your tank but was discarded by the installer.

 

[Midniteoyl]

I have no risers on the manholes - must dig each time. I intend to correct that.

You really only need access to the front of the tank (or front tank) for pumping. Thats where the solids will collect.

As far as I know, the inlet pipe is not sealed to the tank well.. Mine has gaps. This usually is not a problem as the water level should never reach that high. The baffle to the other tank and the outlet pipe are lower. Ground water will tend to push into the tank rather than sewage come out if the water table gets that high.

The 6" pipe in the other manhole cover is quit possibly a vent, though now a days the main house stack is used as a vent instead, maybe yours is different.

I prolly wouldn't call it 'getting screwed', but it very well could be sloppy work. I would take pics and call in another guy to have a quick look.

 

[Claytonfarms]

The permit was tied to the installer. If I get someone else to do the repairs, they want to get a repair permit.

I dug the holes, I was going to backfill but rain slowed me down and I saw the problems pumping water out of the hole around the tank.

I have not paid the installer yet or told him about it. I am thinking I would would just repair it myself or make the installer fix it but who knows if it will even be right if he fixes it.

Yes the outlet side does have very limited access. The entire outlet pipe, tee, manhole cover and inspection pipe etc are one glued together mass. I see no way to install a filter as the inspection pipe is 7 feet to the outlet tee. I will not cover the tank until this is fixed.

I am fairly certain that ground water will run into the tank since the outlet manhole cover does not fit correctly. The outlet side has been filling as it has been raining.


I was looking for some tips to make sure it is fixed correctly and that it will last.

 

[lilranch2001]

Did you take pictures and document everything?

 

[Midniteoyl]

The permit was tied to the installer. If I get someone else to do the repairs, they want to get a repair permit.

I dug the holes, I was going to backfill but rain slowed me down and I saw the problems pumping water out of the hole around the tank.

I have not paid the installer yet or told him about it. I am thinking I would would just repair it myself or make the installer fix it but who knows if it will even be right if he fixes it.

Yes the outlet side does have very limited access. The entire outlet pipe, tee, manhole cover and inspection pipe etc are one glued together mass. I see no way to install a filter as the inspection pipe is 7 feet to the outlet tee. I will not cover the tank until this is fixed.

I am fairly certain that ground water will run into the tank since the outlet manhole cover does not fit correctly. The outlet side has been filling as it has been raining.


I was looking for some tips to make sure it is fixed correctly and that it will last.

You prolly dont need nor want a filter.. The 'tee' is the outlet baffle and the bottom will be below the surface of the water with the top a vent for releasing gases.

The only problem I really see is not having a manhole for that side of the tank to use for later repairs. Though, to be honest, IF you need to repair that side, the pipe on that side will also have to be dug up so its kinda moot.

 

[turnkey4099]

You prolly dont need nor want a filter.. The 'tee' is the outlet baffle and the bottom will be below the surface of the water with the top a vent for releasing gases.

The only problem I really see is not having a manhole for that side of the tank to use for later repairs. Though, to be honest, IF you need to repair that side, the pipe on that side will also have to be dug up so its kinda moot.

If it hasn't filled itself already, fill that tank with water!! The last thing you need is an installed tank rising up. As soon as the installers pulled out of my drive, I had a water hose running into the tank.

I don't understand a two compartment tank with no access to the outlet side. Here, ALL compartments have manhole covers and the tank pumpers pump all compartments (no, all solids do not come to rest in the first one).

Harry K

Harry K

 

[mikim]

Want it done right? Do the research and do it yourself. Pay the man just to get rid of his sloppy butt and do what needs doin'. What the county don't know won't hurt you.

 

[bcp]

Any septic system pros out there?


No, but here is some septic system poetry.

Tales from the Tank: Septic Tank Writings

http://www.a-1septicserviceinc.com/a-1_septic_bathroom_art.pdf



Bruce

 

[ultrarunner]

Think long and hard about how you will proceed. You don't want to get involved with the new rules.

Exactly my thinking... sometimes you win the battle only to lose the war.

Seen it happen way too many times.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Clayton,

Ignore my previous rant and let's solve this w/o poking the hornets nest.

Apparently you have a signed final inspection report. Most jurisdictions use all or most of one of the model codes. I have an older version of the ICC code for private sewage systems and will post excerpts at the end of this dialog. Your installer should have gotten a professional design approved by the "justification having authority". He is required to provide you a copy for your records. You may want to hold payment till you get it and the inspection certificate. Pay him before you start anything else or he may sic his inspector buddy on you again.

Now the fix: Sounds like it is pretty minor and you could do yourself. Who is the manufacturer? Their local supplier should be able to link you up with them to get a copy of their installation guidelines and the various parts like the risers. Worth a try, tell them you need it for your record package. Once you know the brand name search it on the web. You can probably find another, non-local supplier that will sell you the parts you need. Your contractor is surely buddies with their local supplier and already knows your name. Then fix it yourself. Should be easy to reconnect the inlet and outlet lines using "FERNCO" neoprene connector available at even the big box stores. Measure the OD of both ends. If they do not have that one they can order it as they are made in sizes to match all types of material. Document everything in detail so you have a record.

Excerpts:
802.4 Manholes. Each compartment of a tank shall be provided with at least one manhole opening located over the inlet or outlet opening, and such opening shall be not less than 24 inches (610 mm) square or 24 inches (610 mm) in diameter.
Manholes shall terminate a maximum of 6 inches (152 mm) below the ground surface and be of the same material as the tank. The manhole extension on fiberglass tanks shall be of the same material as the tank and an integral part of the tank.
Methods of attaching fiberglass risers shall be water tight and approved.
PROHIBITED JOINTS AND CONNECTIONS
General. The following types of joints and connections shall be prohibited:
• Cement or concrete joints.
• Mastic or hot-pour bituminous joints.
• Joints made with fittings not approved for the specific installation.
• Joints between different diameter pipes made with elastomeric rolling O-rings.
• Solvent-cement joints between different types of plastic pipe.

Lost of luck on this but I think you can get there.

Ron

 

[dmccarty]

In NC, the septic regulations were published on the Internet way back in 1999-2000. I would think MD would have the regulations online. Read the regulations and then proceed. This stuff is not rocket science.

NC has some wacky rules about septic tanks. Our tank has two chambers that each have an access. However, the code only requires a riser to the access on the chamber that has the filter. When the tank gets pumped you have to open the first chamber which by code does not have to have a riser. :confused3::shocked: When our tank was pumped the first time, we added a riser to make the job easier. The code only has a riser on the filter chamber so that it is easier to clean the filter. Some septic pumpers would just pump the chamber with the filter, which of course is not the chamber that really needs pumping.

I would read the MD regulations and change things as you think best. Call a septic pumper and get his opinion since he will be the one helping maintain the system.

Later,
Dan

 

[Claytonfarms]

Happy New Year to all.

I thought I would post some pictures, it explains the install much better. The pipe with the 90 on it was the inlet. No tee in sight. The inlet side in the tank was 21" long.

The pipe with the tee / manhole cover etc. was the outlet. The short pipe is 4", it went to the dist box. The other pipes are 6". The upper part of the 6" with the coupler and cap are not glued together but everything else is. The lower part is 21" from the bottom of the tee. As you can see the hole in the manhole cover is not centered so the cover does not fit, the rear of the tank is filling with rain water.

My tank is 5' tall inside and the outlet is 4' from the bottom of the tank to the bottom of the outlet hole.
Any ideas how long the inlet and outlet pipes should be inside the tank?

I have 2 tees, 20' of pipe, 2 ferncos, risers, lids, sealer, hopefully everything needed to have this fixed and covered in the next couple of days if the rain stays away.